?Purgatory=Biblical?

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  • #1239

    herkman
    Member

    Could someone give me a couple of Bible verses about purgatory?

    #6108

    weather
    Member

    Here’s one “Therefore (Judas Maccabeus)made atonement for the dead,that they might be delivered from their sins.”Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice,why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

    #6109

    herkman
    Member

    [quote:2fjakdtl]Here’s one “Therefore (Judas Maccabeus)made atonement for the dead,that they might be delivered from their sins.”Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice,why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[/quote:2fjakdtl]

    Reference please…

    #6118

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Check out this article: http://www.aboutcatholics.com/life_in_c … purgatory/

    #6132

    herkman
    Member

    [quote:1k0bjq6t]In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.[/quote:1k0bjq6t]

    Jesus is talking about what will happen when a judge throws you in prison. Not about heaven, hell or purgatory.

    [quote:1k0bjq6t]Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

    The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in Hell from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are a final destination unlike purgatory.[/quote:1k0bjq6t]

    This passage is speaking of the unpardonable sin, which is not REPENTING and putting your TRUST in Jesus Christ. All sins are pardonable through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, except not becoming saved. [i:1k0bjq6t]That[/i:1k0bjq6t] can not be forgiven.

    [quote:1k0bjq6t]Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the stuff around it for context).[/quote:1k0bjq6t]

    This is the [i:1k0bjq6t]only[/i:1k0bjq6t] verse not taken out of context. Yes, only those who are made pure in Christ Jesus through his sacrifice will be in heaven. This verse does NOT support purgatory.

    Jesus didn’t die so we could go to purgatory. If God knew we could just go to purgatory for a while, why would Jesus have had to die?

    #6136

    Benedict
    Member

    [quote:3g9hs1jp]This is the only verse not taken out of context. Yes, only those who are made pure in Christ Jesus through his sacrifice will be in heaven. This verse does NOT support purgatory.[/quote:3g9hs1jp]
    Could you please explain to me what you believe purgatory is? Because you just admitted that purgation exists and then denied it in the next breath.

    [quote:3g9hs1jp]If God knew we could just go to purgatory for a while, why would Jesus have had to die?[/quote:3g9hs1jp]
    And this confirms what you said in the other thread about not knowing anything about Catholicism.

    So please explain purgatory to me and then I will correct where you are mistaken.

    #6137

    herkman
    Member

    Here’s what I believe: Purgatory does not exist.

    #6139

    Benedict
    Member

    Except you admitted that purgation exists in your last post.

    So please explain what you think purgatory means, as I can tell you now that it differs substantially from the Catholic teaching.

    #6142

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:38r35rpe]Jesus is talking about what will happen when a judge throws you in prison. Not about heaven, hell or purgatory.[/quote:38r35rpe]
    Jesus often speaks in parables. Who do you think “the judge” is? It’s certainly not an American judiciary or simply a judge from the Roman judicial system 2000 years ago. <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    #6159

    herkman
    Member

    [quote:3s0vz9cd]Except you admitted that purgation exists in your last post.

    So please explain what you think purgatory means, as I can tell you now that it differs substantially from the Catholic teaching.[/quote:3s0vz9cd]

    Where, pray-tell, did I admit that?

    [quote:3s0vz9cd] “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

    “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.[/quote:3s0vz9cd]

    This is the context. Below is the verses quoted.

    [quote:3s0vz9cd] “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[/quote:3s0vz9cd]

    Jesus is saying that it is better to try and settle something without the threat of jail. Because then, you will not get out. He is wanting you to swallow your pride and try and make it up to your enemy.

    #6161

    Benedict
    Member

    [quote:312n0u2c]Where, pray-tell, did I admit that?[/quote:312n0u2c]
    “This is the only verse not taken out of context. Yes, only those who are made pure in Christ Jesus through his sacrifice will be in heaven.”

    Purgation is being made pure in Christ Jesus through the graces merited by His sacrifice. That is why I find “If God knew we could just go to purgatory for a while, why would Jesus have had to die?” a funny question. It is not seeing the forest for the trees.

    Try these two questions:

    1- Do you believe that in heaven we will be truly perfect?

    2- Do you believe that we are truly perfect on earth?

    Luther once used the analogy of a dung heap (our sins) covered in snow (Christ’s grace). But Revelation says that no imperfection will enter into heaven, so at some point all that dung has to go; no matter how much snow you pile on top, that dung cannot enter heaven.

    If one dies in God’s good grace, he is destined for heaven. Purgatory is how the dung is removed so that no imperfection enters heaven. This removal is not separate from Christ’s sacrifice but, on the contrary, wholly and entirely dependent on it. Without Christ, there is no purgation.

    #6164

    weather
    Member

    Lets look at Purgatory
    This issue is a major stumbling block for many non-Catholis, especially Protestants and Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Catholic tradations of purgatory(a temporary state or process of purification,carried out by God’s fiery love on the soul of a person who dies in the state of grace and is destined for heaven).First the doctrine of purgatory was not “invented” by Catholics in the eleventh or twelfth century,as some Protestants and others erroneously assume.This ancient Christian teaching,that there is a process of purification that the souls of some of those who die in the state of friendship with God (Romans 11:22,and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).When Christians on earth(as well as those in heaven)pray for the souls in purgatory,it is one way in which we live out our commandment from the Lord(John 13:34, 15:12 Romans 13:8).The early Church clearly understood the Apostles teaching on purgatory.

    #6167

    gesundheit
    Member

    Weather wrote
    [quote:2ac3sp48]this issue is a major stumbling block for many non-Catholis, especially Protestants and Jehovah’s Witnesses[/quote:2ac3sp48]
    Umm, are you implying that Protestants and Jehova’s Witnesses are in the same camp? I pray not :shock:

    [quote:2ac3sp48]The early Church clearly understood the Apostles teaching on purgatory.[/quote:2ac3sp48]
    Actually, the Early Church formulated the idea of purgatory based on their interpretation of Scripture. It is not specifically mentioned in Scripture, much like the Trinity (though we understand by logical reasoning that it is true that God is three in one). I think I understand what you’re saying though, that the overlaying theme of the NT scriptures seem to suggest that purgatory may exist, although there is not any specific mention of it.

    herkman asked if someone could “give me a couple of Bible verses about purgatory?”

    Like I’ve said here, there’s no specific mention of it. The Early Church Fathers reasoned that God must have something in which to cleanse sins before entering paradise. I’ve said it before somewhere but as an Evangelical you must have heard of CS Lewis and should read his “The Great Divorce”. That’ll give you a different perspective from a non-Catholic who is given credit as being one of the greatest among modern Christian thinkers.

    Also, here’s something that must always be considered: there’s too much not even mentioned in Scripture. Some things must be constructed through reason and sound theology based on what has been passed down to us through tradition from the Early Church Fathers on how the Scriptures are to be interpreted and how to answer the questions that need to be addressed but are not explicitly spoken of in the Bible. For interest sake look at 1 Cor 15:29.

    cheers

    #6169

    Benedict
    Member

    [quote:miqhaxib]Umm, are you implying that Protestants and Jehova’s Witnesses are in the same camp? I pray not[/quote:miqhaxib]
    In the same camp only insofar as neither group is Catholic and both groups frequently enter into apologetical discussion with Catholics.

    But I believe he mentions them separately by name in order to draw a distinction. Because of their rejection of one of our most basic and defining doctrines, JWs are not reckoned as Christians by the Church.

    #6214

    herkman
    Member

    [quote:9c6cfuop][quote:9c6cfuop]Where, pray-tell, did I admit that?[/quote:9c6cfuop]
    [quote:9c6cfuop]”This is the only verse not taken out of context. Yes, only those who are made pure in Christ Jesus through his sacrifice will be in heaven.”[/quote:9c6cfuop]

    Purgation is being made pure in Christ Jesus through the graces merited by His sacrifice. That is why I find “If God knew we could just go to purgatory for a while, why would Jesus have had to die?” a funny question. It is not seeing the forest for the trees.

    Try these two questions:

    1- Do you believe that in heaven we will be truly perfect?

    2- Do you believe that we are truly perfect on earth?

    Luther once used the analogy of a dung heap (our sins) covered in snow (Christ’s grace). But Revelation says that no imperfection will enter into heaven, so at some point all that dung has to go; no matter how much snow you pile on top, that dung cannot enter heaven.

    If one dies in God’s good grace, he is destined for heaven. Purgatory is how the dung is removed so that no imperfection enters heaven. This removal is not separate from Christ’s sacrifice but, on the contrary, wholly and entirely dependent on it. Without Christ, there is no purgation.[/quote:9c6cfuop]

    I did not admit that there is a ‘purgatory,’ please don’t twist my wods to make it seem so. And here is where you are wrong: When Christ died, he did not merely cover our sins, he ERASED them as far as the east is from the west. Animals were not willing and perfect, so they were only TEMPORARY sacrifices. However, Christ’s sacrifice was an eternal atonement.

    #6215

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:1gwtnree]When Christ died, he did not merely cover our sins, he ERASED them as far as the east is from the west. [/quote:1gwtnree]
    So…you don’t sin?

    #6238

    Benedict
    Member

    [quote:xrnu8tk7]I did not admit that there is a ‘purgatory,’ please don’t twist my wods to make it seem so[/quote:xrnu8tk7]
    This means you still are not grasping what is meant by purgatory. Your own words admit that we are cleansed by Christ’s sacrifice. That cleansing is purgation, and purgatory is just another name for it. I am not twisting your words. You have an idea in your head that purgatory is one thing when, in fact, the Church teaches it is another. You are simply unaware that your own words are a description of what purgatory actually is.

    [quote:xrnu8tk7]And here is where you are wrong: When Christ died, he did not merely cover our sins, he ERASED them as far as the east is from the west.[/quote:xrnu8tk7]
    And that “ERASURE” is purgation again. Just because you call it by another name does not change the fact that you are again describing exactly what is meant by purgation.

    [quote:xrnu8tk7]However, Christ’s sacrifice was an eternal atonement.[/quote:xrnu8tk7]
    An atonement that must be applied. It is grace without end, but just because the bank account is infinite does not mean you don’t cut a check to pay the bills.

    That is what Jon is getting to in his post above. We sin. We must repent and receive forgiveness and make atonement and receive Christ’s grace. And that, in a nutshell, is purgation.

    #6244

    gesundheit
    Member

    I think their is a problem in understanding purgatory. Catholic theology argues that purgatory (state after death) is God’s way of pardoning all sins (I think so). Herkmen on the other hand as not being Catholic finds this doctrine wrong because God’s grace of salvation (blood of Christ) = immediate cleansing, or at least in some Evangelical circles, that once a Christian dies, he or she will enter heaven without the need of purgatory. Most Evangelicals deny the doctrine of purgatory because to them it is one of those “extra-biblical” doctrines (rosary, Mary, and other things they struggle with coming to grips with in Catholic practice).

    #6247

    weather
    Member

    I was told not to eat any animals with split hoofs,is that correct?

    #6291

    Benedict
    Member

    [quote:32l5rnxw]I think their is a problem in understanding purgatory.[/quote:32l5rnxw]
    Absolutely. That is why I asked herkman to explain purgatory to me as he understands it. Because based on what he has said, he has a different understanding than what the Church teaches.

    [quote:32l5rnxw]Catholic theology argues that purgatory (state after death) is God’s way of pardoning all sins (I think so).[/quote:32l5rnxw]
    Close. You cannot get into purgatory (a state, not a place) unless you are already on the way to heaven. Everyone who enters purgatory is destined to enter heaven. What purgatory does is removes all the last stains of sin, all the little inclinations we have that lead us to sin in our life even after our baptism and conversion to Christ. We know that, because we sin after we convert, some imperfection remains. These imperfections are removed in purgatory.

    [quote:32l5rnxw]Herkmen on the other hand as not being Catholic finds this doctrine wrong because God’s grace of salvation (blood of Christ) = immediate cleansing, or at least in some Evangelical circles, that once a Christian dies, he or she will enter heaven without the need of purgatory.[/quote:32l5rnxw]
    I find that even these Evangelicals, when you put the facts before them and make them think about it, admit that there is some kind of cleansing that must happen between life and heaven. That cleansing is purgatory. However, because they only learn half of purgatory (and usually distortions cast in a negative light at that), they refuse to acknowledge that cleansing as being the same as purgatory (as herkman objected above).

    Catholics have long spoken of purgatory in terms of time, saying that doing X will require Y years in purgatory or some such. This is not necessary in the theology of purgatory but simply a way for laymen to grasp the concept. Purgatory could very well last for only the barest of split seconds.

    [quote:32l5rnxw]Most Evangelicals deny the doctrine of purgatory because to them it is one of those “extra-biblical” doctrines (rosary, Mary, and other things they struggle with coming to grips with in Catholic practice).[/quote:32l5rnxw]
    On the ball once again. When I started reading about Catholicism, I found there were things I objected to without even knowing what they were. It seems hardwired into some sects of Protestantism to oppose things simply because they are Catholic. At some point, the opposition of the Reformation became merely habit.

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