Purgatory

Home Forums All Things Catholic Purgatory

This topic contains 8 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  SOGFPP 10 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #750

    huntzy
    Member

    Here is another discussion I am getting involved with my christian friend

    Regarding a “man-made” concept vs a “scripture” based fact

    Item 2 – Purgatory, Prayer for the Dead, Works based salvation
    The Catholic church has defined the existence of purgatory in the Decree of Union drawn at the Council of Florence in AD 1439 and again at the Council of the Trent, which says:

    “The Catholic church, instructed by the Holy Spirit, has from sacred scriptures and the ancient traditions of the fathers taught in sacred councils and very recently in the ecumenical synod that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therin detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar.”

    The bible also warns about man-made teachings;
    Colossians 2:4 Paul to the church of Colossae
    “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ”

    The Catholic Church Decree on Justification
    “If anyone says that after the grace of justification has been received, the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out for any repentant sinner, than no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid, either in this world or in the other, in purgatory, before access can be opened to the kingdom of heaven, anathema sit”

    Anethma sit is a Latin phrase meaning “Let him be cursed” This is where my belief and the Catholic belief are in direct contradiction.

    The whole purgatory concept is just so foreign and false to me. It basically says that with enough prayer and money (sacrifice) someone can get to heaven

    This is what I believe the Scripture says about how one “gets” to heaven.

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    “For it is by grace you have been saved, thru faith ‚Äì and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of god ‚Äì not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

    If I am saved thru my faith which is a gift of God, why do I need to offer any other sacrificial prayer or money to get to heaven?

    Galations 2:21
    I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained thru the law, Christ died for nothing!

    Romans 3: 20
    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his site by observing the law, rather, thru the law we become conscious of sin.

    Romans 3:23, 24
    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace thru the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:12-15
    He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, than, will the blood of Christ, who thru the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason, Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first convenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    #2563

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:3er306b8]The whole purgatory concept is just so foreign and false to me. It basically says that with enough prayer and money (sacrifice) someone can get to heaven [/quote:3er306b8]

    Ummm…how on earth would you get that notion about money? It is nowhere written in anything you posted.

    Read this about purgatory first: http://www.aboutcatholics.com/viewpage.php?story=29 then we can talk. <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    Also, I don’t see anything in those passages against purgatory. But one also has to understand the teaching on it in order to get it.

    #2566

    Benedict
    Member

    Simply start by showing your friend he already believes in Purgatory.

    “Are you perfect?” “No.”
    “Can anything imperfect enter Heaven?” “No.”
    “Do we need purification?” “Yes.”
    “Purgatory is purification.”

    #2567

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:365bc71d]Simply start by showing your friend he already believes in Purgatory.

    “Are you perfect?” “No.”
    “Can anything imperfect enter Heaven?” “No.”
    “Do we need purification?” “Yes.”
    “Purgatory is purification.”[/quote:365bc71d]

    Ha ha…that’s a part of the article I wrote on this site about purgatory. <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    The problem is that purgatory does not fit in with the “once saved, always saved” mentality/theology. So, basically, the people who think they are “saved” know they are going to heaven so there is no purgatory for them. Of course on the flipside, those that are not “saved” (specifically Catholics to some people) are going to hell. There is no in-between. But of course one would come to this conclusion if they subscribe to an obscure eschatology. <img src=” title=”Very Happy” />

    #3397

    Fred
    Member

    Peace be with you Jon,

    Awesome article on Purgatory! I think it explains it perfectly. But, unfortunately I do not think it will end the argument that Fundamentalists have. But then again, I don’t think there is away to end this debate.

    The article states it correctly, “Yes, actions plus faith.” And an action equal works.

    Fred,

    #3401

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:1z9w0mvz]Awesome article on Purgatory! I think it explains it perfectly. But, unfortunately I do not think it will end the argument that Fundamentalists have. But then again, I don’t think there is away to end this debate.[/quote:1z9w0mvz]
    For many people, no matter how much it is explained or how much is written, the argument against will not end. I guess that’s what is referred to as planting the seed and letting the Holy Spirit do the cultivating.

    #3403

    asimonelli
    Member

    I don’t understand what the deal is about objecting to the doctrine of Purgatory unless they missunderstand it altogether. I do not know everything the Church’s teaching on Purgatory but I do know it is only for those who are going to Heaven and not Hell. (nice article by the way <img src=” title=”Wink” /> )

    When I was a Protestant, I thought it was a temporary place for people who were not all that bad, but not all that good either (maybe the majority of the population?) and that through prayers, money giving (paying off the church), and through sacrifices at Mass, we would earn them Salvation and entrance into Heaven but if we didn’t, they would end up in Hell. And I believed the whole money-making sceme of the Church that Protestant’s use against Purgatory.

    Besides, who doesn’t want to be fully cleansed of all of the horrible effects of sin (temporal punishment) and enter worthly into Heaven, no matter how painful the process may be. <img src=” title=”Smile” />

    #3405

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    asimonelli,
    Thanks for your comments. It’s really helpful to be able to learn about the perspective from outside the Church in a non-hostile environment. <img src=” title=”Wink” /> I think I may incorporate what you said a little bit in a future revision of that article.

    [quote:1lpgs5wn]Besides, who doesn’t want to be fully cleansed of all of the horrible effects of sin (temporal punishment) and enter worthly into Heaven, no matter how painful the process may be.[/quote:1lpgs5wn]
    See, that’s just it though. The once saved, always saved mentality does not believe (as far as I know) that there are temporal effects of sin. So it is hard for something like purgatory to fit into their theology.

    #3680

    SOGFPP
    Member

    Purgatory exists because God is both just and merciful.

    Purgatory is “like a refiner’s fire” (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven or bad enough for hell.

    CCC1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    CCC1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

    As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

    The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven.

    At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even though we are justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ’s Body and having thereby received God’s supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.

    ……but in heaven we will be perfectly sanctified, with no lingering bad habits or imperfections in our souls.

    Therefore, for most of us, there must be some additional change, some purification, between death and heaven. This is purgatory.

    Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

    Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

    In death many of us are still imperfect: (1 Jn 1:8 )

    In heaven we will all be perfect: (Mt 5:48, Rev 21:27)

    Scripture also distinguishes sins that cannot be forgiven either before or after death from sins that can be forgiven after death: (Mt 12:31-32)

    The reality of purgatory is found in Scripture, though not the word – just like the Trinity.

    Peace,
    Scott

Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.