November 3, 2011 at 12:36 pm #2078
Jon,I just read your artical about purgatory and wanted to say that Ephesians 2:8 says different
in my opinion.If a person is truly saved then of course his actions will reflect the presence of God in his or her life.Have a gooden!November 4, 2011 at 3:25 am #10172
About Catholics TeamKeymaster
Where you and I differ is that I do not believe (and the Catholic Church does not teach) that salvation occurs before death. Jesus has redeemed us by his death on the cross, but salvation is the moment we enter heaven. Accepting Jesus doesn’t save us, but it does redeem us. Free will is an a factor in our lives until death. We can choose to go against God even if redeemed.
Even St. Paul worked out his salvation “with fear and trembling.” Salvation is a journey, redemption is the start of that journey.November 4, 2011 at 11:20 am #10173
it doesn’t say redeemed in acts chapter 16 it says saved,but salvation wasn’t the question it was purgatory,dont get me wrong iam not tring to cause trouble or nothing i just saw a post a women made about purgatory and started searching the bible and could find nothing.I am not a Catholic basher, i was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school as a child.I married a Baptist and am now a Southern Baptist,i believe you and I will be in the same heaven some day,i wish all baptist could believe this but they have a hard time with it for some reason.I hope the weather up there is not too bad!November 4, 2011 at 2:38 pm #10174
buz[quote:36hjreo1]i just saw a post a women made about purgatory and [u:36hjreo1]started searching the bible and could find nothing.[/u:36hjreo1][/quote:36hjreo1]
But where in the Bible do you find that every belief MUST be in the Bible? The early Christians surely didn’t have handy a KJV that they bought at the corner Christian Bookstore and besides 90% of the people could not read either. You don’t find the word” Bible” in the Bible, or the word “Trinity”. How about “Incarnation”? Where do you find a list of what books belong in the Bible? How do you know each and every book in the Bible is inspired?
The mistake many do is they will read scripture on their own and automatically think THEY are inspired by the Holy Spirit and fully understand what it says or doesn’t say. We must read scripture in light of the Tradition of the Church because it is the Church who understands it more deeply than any individual. The beliefs are either explicit or implicit. We believe that what each evangelist wrote, if it was either stated or implied, was by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is the Church to which Jesus gave His command to go out and “Teach”, not go out and distribute KJV’s and let people read on their own decide on their own what He meant.
We find implications about Purgatory in 2 Maccabees, Matthew 12:32, Lk 12:58-59 1 Cor 3:11-15 and there are others. Actually purgatory is such a beautiful doctrine in light of Revelations 21:27. Remember, there is no such thing in scripture as OSAS, (One Saved Always Saved) and since nothing impure can enter heaven, even the smallest of sin, like if I stole 1 dollar from my rich neighbor, if not for purgatory, I would be damned to hell for all eternity. Remember too that Purgatory is NOT a second chance which many Protestants erroneously think the Church teaches. Souls in purgatory are already saved; they just have to be made pure as if through fire for that “stolen 1 dollar.”
This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1030–1).
The Early Church fathers (before we had the canon of the Bible) also taught about it:
The Acts of Paul and Thecla — “And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’” (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).
Tertullian — “We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]” (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).
“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).
Cyril of Jerusalem — “Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out” (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350])
And after we had the Bible:
John Chrysostom — “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).
St. Augustine — “Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment” (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419])
Even though the word “purgatory” was not used we can see that the Early Fathers taught about a place of purging. So we can see that the teaching of the CC on Purgatory has been constant. It wasn’t until people started attempting to interpret scripture on their own (and we know what the Bible has to say about that) that many decided to discard some of the beliefs of the Church because “They were inspired”.
Many prefer to follow their own instead of the Church that Jesus founded.November 23, 2011 at 9:31 pm #10194
Question from the article “where is purgatory in the bible by Jon Jakoblich
He begins by stating, “The Bible does not mention the exact word “purgatory,” but instead it makes reference to a place. To claim that it does not exist because of this is a cop out.
You might as well even deny that there is a book called the Bible because no such name is found in the inspired writings.”
Then ends with, “So, why do non-Catholics reject a teaching so full of consolation? My guess is that they want to believe that the merits of Christ applied to the sinner who trusts in Him, will remove all sin; hence the believer will go at once to Heaven (also known as the belief called Sola Fide or faith alone).
Nowhere in the Bible does it say faith alone. This is un-Scriptural, since Christ tells us that to enter into life we must keep the commandments, hear the Church, do the will of His Father and much more with faith. Yes, actions plus faith.”
See the problem here? Believe in Purgatory even though it isn’t mentioned directly, but don’t believe in Sola Fida because it isn’t mentioned in scripture.
But my real question is this. What sins were forgiven by Christ’s death on the cross? How many of our sins can we be forgiven of before we die? Which sins can’t be forgiven until we die? What do we do with the faith statements of Paul in the new testament? Statements like:
To live is Christ, to die is gain
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by [c]sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
Rom 5:8 Jesus died to pay the penalty for all sin
1 Jn 2:2
Or how about Jesus himself, saying to the paralytic, “your sins are forgiven”
To the woman at the well, Go and sin no more, implying she was forgiven
Paul we are free from sin
Jesus telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus, who died and immediately went to heaven?
I am not coming to start a fight, I just don’t know how Catholics or those who believe in purgatory respond to these scriptures, or what to do with them.February 16, 2012 at 2:08 am #10297
JoxiosMember"buz":1y4r5w7s wrote:Jon,I just read your artical about purgatory and wanted to say that Ephesians 2:8 says different
in my opinion.If a person is truly saved then of course his actions will reflect the presence of God in his or her life.Have a gooden![/quote:1y4r5w7s]
Though not considered Sacred Scripture, It is considered historical, the Maccabee’s was/ in the Septuagint, copied into the Greek between 350 to 200 b.c. and was read by Greek speaking Jews, Jesus never said not to listen to the teachings of the Temple Priests or In the synagogues of his day or past, and never did forbid reading any of the known scriptures.
The Septuagint was Paul’s Bible!
So we find Jesus’ Jewish predecessors making:
[b:1y4r5w7s]Expiation for the Dead[/b:1y4r5w7s].
2 Macc 12:
Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was approaching, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there.
On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.
But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.f
They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
* [b:1y4r5w7s]Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out.[/b:1y4r5w7s] The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g
[b:1y4r5w7s]He then took up a collection[/b:1y4r5w7s] among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. [b:1y4r5w7s]In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead[/b:1y4r5w7s].
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
[b:1y4r5w7s]Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.[/b:1y4r5w7s]
The easiest way to turn from catholic teachings is to throw the book that have precedence to Catholic teachings.
the Maccabees believed that expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise ‘good’ men – soldiers who had given their lives for God’s cause. Thus they could share in the resurrection .
[b:1y4r5w7s] If they’re in heaven they don’t need our prayers[/b:1y4r5w7s], [u:1y4r5w7s] if they’re in hell there is nothing our prayers can do for them! [/u:1y4r5w7s]
[b:1y4r5w7s]Catholics believe that there is a middle ground in which our prayers and personal sacrifice do help, we call it purgatory.[/b:1y4r5w7s]
2 Macc was included in the early KJV’s, it was left out for no other reason but to print bible’s smaller and less expensive!
The Jews still to this day pray for their dead for 11 months after their departed die.
[b:1y4r5w7s]Jesus says “I hold the keys to death and the netherworld [sheol]” [/b:1y4r5w7s](Revelations 1:18 – sheol in Greek is hades). Jesus is not holding the keys to something that no longer exists, but to something that still exists. But if it still exists, what is it for? Do any souls still go to sheol even after Jesus’ resurrection? If so, are any of these souls righteous?
Early Christian inscriptions on Catacomb walls to include “A prayer here and there for the dead: ‘May God refresh thy spirit'” (Hislop, The Two Babylons, 8, note).
St. John Chrysostom: Offerings for the Faithful Departed
“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice (Job 1:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
JohnFebruary 16, 2012 at 5:56 am #10299
LARobertParticipant"buz":2mb11oqs wrote:Jon,I just read your artical about purgatory and wanted to say that Ephesians 2:8 says different in my opinion. If a person is truly saved then of course his actions will reflect the presence of God in his or her life.Have a gooden![/quote:2mb11oqs]
Well all so far have been good explanations of Purgatory. The only correction may be that while most Protestants do not accept I and II Maccabees, it has been accepted as part of the Canon of Sacred Scripture from the earliest days of the Church.
The issue at hand is the interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 and the other writings of St. Paul and the inspired writers of the NT. St. Paul makes it clear that our salvation is in Christ Jesus, but he also tells us that we need to run the good race, that our life in Christ is one in which we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. When we look at the Greek NT, St Paul does not preach what the Baptists preach that at the moment we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we are irrevokably saved, (Once Saved, Always Saved.) Far from it in the greek, St. Paul does tell us that we are saved, tge greej tells us that salvation is a work in progress, Christ work on the cross is a work that He preforms on us as we enter and grow in our spiritual life. It is something that once we accept, we can later reject.
Baptists and other “Evangelicals” have rejected what the Early Church delivered to us from the Apostles, and created a system where a momentary and enthusiastic acceptance of Jesus forces Him to save us, a bond that He must adhere to because of one momentary act we take. Because it would seem many if not most who take that one needed step, fall back into a life of sin there are only two options, one being saying that they made their decision for Christ, so they will go to heaven no matter. The second error is to point at someone who falls back into a sinful life, and judge them as never having been “really saved”. A far cry from what Jesus taught the Apostles, or the Apostles handed on to the leaders of the Early Church who they ordained to rule the Church. (Yup that is Biblical).
As for the rest, Jon et al did a good job of showing the exsistance of Purgatory.February 17, 2012 at 1:07 am #10304
JoxiosMember"LARobert":2eq1542c wrote:"buz":2eq1542c wrote:Jon,I just read your artical about purgatory and wanted to say that Ephesians 2:8 says different in my opinion. If a person is truly saved then of course his actions will reflect the presence of God in his or her life.Have a gooden![/quote:2eq1542c]
Well all so far have been good explanations of Purgatory. The only correction may be that while most Protestants do not accept I and II Maccabees, it has been accepted as part of the Canon of Sacred Scripture from the earliest days of the Church…
As for the rest, Jon et al did a good job of showing the exsistance of Purgatory.[/quote:2eq1542c]
Hello LA Robert,
allow me to clarify, Though not considered Sacred Scripture, as early as Jerome, The Canon is not settles as of yet, I honestly thought Sacred Scripture: ‘Canon’ different from 2nd canon deuterocanonical.
I was trying to make the distinction between Sacred Scripture, and Scripture, Deuterocanonical “Second Canon’ upon further review yes, the early Church regarded them as Scripture but Jerome had placed them together in the middle of his Vulgate. Jerome referred to them as scriptural and quoted from them despite describing them as “not in the canon”.
Having used a Jerome Biblical commentary for yrs. I stand corrected!
Thank you, however in trying to get a Protestant to consider these Books, I have used the term ‘historical;’ “Good for inspiration” [M.Luther], so they ought not be objected to.
I know why the Hebrew counsels left them out, but I wasn’t fully aware the Church had always called them Sacred.
The deuterocanonical (from the Greek deutero meaning second) books are those books of the Bible that were under discussion for a while until doubts about their canonicity were resolved (e.g. Sirach and Baruch of the Old Testament, and the Johannine epistles of the New Testament).
The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon.
Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today’s canon.
The Council of Rome, 382 a.d., was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus’ Decree.
Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 a.d. requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon.
The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in[b:2eq1542c] 393 a.d. which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.[/b:2eq1542c]
Following the Protestant attack on the integrity of the Bible, the Catholic Church infallibly reaffirmed the divine inspiration of the deuterocanonical books at the Council of Trent in 1546. In doing this, it reaffirmed what had been believed since the time of Christ[/quote:2eq1542c]
Thanks for the rebuke!
As far as Eph 2:8, context of the letter, not the one verse is what is important, it is speaking of the unity of the Church Gentile and Jew in Christ, not the individual.
When asked are you saved? The correct catholic response is, “I am saved, I am being saved, I hope to be saved,” Salvation is a process.
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