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So are you just going to leave it like that? Or are you going to show me where you get the idea that we can ignore the Scriptures because Paul wasn’t referring to our laws?
I didn’t say we could ignore them. What I [b:2413wd5l]am[/b:2413wd5l] saying is that you are taking the Scriptures out of context.
When Jesus said, “I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law” (Matthew 5:17) to which law was he referring? The Roman law? The Catholic law? No, he was referring to the Jewish law. Likewise was Paul when he was speaking to Jews because that was what he meant by “the law”.
If you want proof of who Paul was talking to go to your local library and start doing some research. You will be quite enlightened by what you find.
The other issue at hand is whether salvation is instantaneous upon asking Jesus into your heart or something that is obtained after living a life in Christ. In other words whether salvation is a one time, guaranteed deal or a process that spans a person’s lifetime.
If salvation is guaranteed once you profess faith in Christ then how can faith without works be dead? If works are not evident in the life of a professing Christian would that person’s level of trust and obedience in Christ be in question?
You say all one needs is faith alone, but the Bible says faith without works is dead. God judges us by our actions (i.e. “works”) in the end (Matthew 7:21, 12:33, 12:36-37). Would not those who did no works, in faith, not get to heaven? Wouldn’t that mean salvation is dependent upon works?
I mean, Jesus even says himself, “[color=red:2413wd5l]I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.[/color:2413wd5l]” Sure sounds like Judgement and salvation depend on what we do — works.
How can you reconcile this, Ron?
Jon, you said,
[quote:39zyjmmk]
I didn’t say we could ignore them. What I am saying is that you are taking the Scriptures out of context. [/quote:39zyjmmk]
I don’t think so, that’s only what you guys try to tell me[quote:39zyjmmk]When Jesus said, “I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law” (Matthew 5:17) to which law was he referring? The Roman law? The Catholic law? No, he was referring to the Jewish law. Likewise was Paul when he was speaking to Jews because that was what he meant by “the law”. [/quote:39zyjmmk]
Of course He wasn’t suggesting to follow any law either!
[quote:39zyjmmk]
If you want proof of who Paul was talking to go to your local library and start doing some research. You will be quite enlightened by what you find. [/quote:39zyjmmk]
I don’t think that it would teach me anything new, thank you.
[quote:39zyjmmk]
The other issue at hand is whether salvation is instantaneous upon asking Jesus into your heart or something that is obtained after living a life in Christ. In other words whether salvation is a one time, guaranteed deal or a process that spans a person’s lifetime. [/quote:39zyjmmk]
[quote:39zyjmmk]
If salvation is guaranteed once you profess faith in Christ then how can faith without works be dead? If works are not evident in the life of a professing Christian would that person’s level of trust and obedience in Christ be in question? [/quote:39zyjmmk]
When He died at Calvary, he died for all my sins. Even the future ones. Why do you not believe in what He did? Its the Heart issue. Are you going to believe Historically in what He did but refuse to change your life – then No, you won’t get saved, however if that is the point in which you profess, then you are and by your fruit (works) it give evidence as such. (But the works such as sacraments still do not remove sins)[quote:39zyjmmk]You say all one needs is faith alone, but the Bible says faith without works is dead. God judges us by our actions (i.e. “works”) in the end (Matthew 7:21, 12:33, 12:36-37). Would not those who did no works, in faith, not get to heaven? [/quote:39zyjmmk]
Depends upon what he was trusting in to remove His sins – his works or Jesus work done at calvary – It’s the sin issue, Jon – otherwise how many works that you do remove sin? ten Hail Marys? Build two hospitals? How many what does this?[quote:39zyjmmk]Wouldn’t that mean salvation is dependent upon works? [/quote:39zyjmmk]
If that was what our salvation depended upon, then yes , but it doesn’t
Again the sin issue cannot be ignored and that is what your way does![quote:39zyjmmk]I mean, Jesus even says himself, “I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” Sure sounds like Judgement and salvation depend on what we do — works.[/quote:39zyjmmk]
Such is as you Catholics speak erroniously -Yes because by your words you deny the Blood of Christ for works.[quote:39zyjmmk]How can you reconcile this, Ron? [/quote:39zyjmmk]
Reread what I’ve tried to show you, no problem! (Even your Library would say this if you looked hard enough!Ron, you are totally glossing over what I am pointing out to you and repeating the same gibberish over and over again which does not answer my charges.
The quote about Jesus fulfilling the law has nothing do with him saying whether we should follow it or not.
You also don’t sound very open to doing any research into this matter by saying you won’t learn anything new – that’s too bad. A closed mind and a closed heart won’t get us anywhere.
[b:3lcndh1k]Nothing I am saying is rejecting that Christ dies for our sins.[/b:3lcndh1k] I have never said anything to the contrary. Salvation (meaning going to heaven) is not guaranteed to us upon a one time profession of faith. The Bible says otherwise.
What sin issue am I ignoring? I also never said works remove sin. Hey, the only reason we can do anything is because of what Christ did for us. I don’t know how I can emphasize that any more. We agree on that, Ron.
What is sin, Ron? Would you agree that sin is a bad action done by us? Do you believe that once someone is saved (in your defintion) that he or she can sin after that point?
God judges us by our fruit. If we produce bad fruit – hell; if we produce good fruit – eternal life. But I am not saying that the production of good fruit is exclusive from having faith in Christ. Matthew tells us that. Faith and good fruits are necessary to get to heaven. Only the blood of Christ can cleanse our sins but we must respond to God and DO the will of the Father to get to heaven.
Jesus Christ came to redeem mankind – he opened the doorway to get to heaven. It’s our job to put our faith in Christ and to do the will of the Father – that’s a two-fold salvation. The Bible clearly states all this.
Jon says:
[quote:1ch8hvxg]Ron, you are totally glossing over what I am pointing out to you and repeating the same gibberish over and over again which does not answer my charges. [/quote:1ch8hvxg]
No I’m not. I’ve been there done that!
[quote:1ch8hvxg]
The quote about Jesus fulfilling the law has nothing do with him saying whether we should follow it or not.You also don’t sound very open to doing any research into this matter by saying you won’t learn anything new – that’s too bad. A closed mind and a closed heart won’t get us anywhere. [/quote:1ch8hvxg]
I know what you say but its a 1 John 1:6 issue – you DON”T see that Roman Catholicism says one thing but walks to a different beat that denies their claim.
[quote:1ch8hvxg]
Nothing I am saying is rejecting that Christ dies for our sins. I have never said anything to the contrary. Salvation (meaning going to heaven) is not guaranteed to us upon a one time profession of faith. The Bible says otherwise. [/quote:1ch8hvxg]
no it does say the heart issue – I can quote many verses that says you are wrong, verses like Ephesians 1:13+14 – [color=darkred:1ch8hvxg][i:1ch8hvxg]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. [/i:1ch8hvxg][/color:1ch8hvxg].[quote:1ch8hvxg]What sin issue am I ignoring?[/quote:1ch8hvxg]
I’m glad you asked – you say you beleive yet you say there is a purgatory, priestly confessions, the rosary, praying to the dead, indulgences, the mass, the “real presence” in the eucharists, ….. all of these deny what you claim to believe.[quote:1ch8hvxg]
I also never said works remove sin. Hey, the only reason we can do anything is because of what Christ did for us. I don’t know how I can emphasize that any more. We agree on that, Ron. [/quote:1ch8hvxg]
It isn’t what you say its your practice of unbiblical practices that deny what you say – the whole religious deception of the Catholic Church is what you defend. We can boldly aproach God, then why pray to a dead person? If you believe in what Christ did then why push purgatory? etc etc…….[quote:1ch8hvxg]What is sin, Ron? Would you agree that sin is a bad action done by us? Do you believe that once someone is saved (in your defintion) that he or she can sin after that point? [/quote:1ch8hvxg]
Yes look at Paul’s story in Roman’s 7:15 to 8:1,
[quote:1ch8hvxg]
God judges us by our fruit. If we produce bad fruit – hell; if we produce good fruit – eternal life. But I am not saying that the production of good fruit is exclusive from having faith in Christ. Matthew tells us that. Faith and good fruits are necessary to get to heaven. Only the blood of Christ can cleanse our sins but we must respond to God and DO the will of the Father to get to heaven. [/quote:1ch8hvxg]The Bible says that if we love Him we will turn away from sin, but we still have our cur cursed flesh to deal with, so the key is to not practice sinning so we stugglle daily in this battled
[quote:1ch8hvxg]
Jesus Christ came to redeem mankind – he opened the doorway to get to heaven. It’s our job to put our faith in Christ and to do the will of the Father – that’s a two-fold salvation. The Bible clearly states all this.
[/quote:1ch8hvxg]Therefore stop the meaningless rituals, prayers to the dead, and the rest of the twists found in Catholicism
Ron, it appears there are much larger issues at hand than just the simple talk which we are speaking about. You are making assumptions about a lot of other Catholic practices that we have never even covered or even why they exist. You’ve been witholding that from this conversation unfairly.
I’m not really sure how to proceed since it sounds like you want to throw the whole gamut of Catholicism at us and expect to explain it all in a few simple sentences.
You pretend like we add all these extra things to the Gospel when it sounds like you don’t really know a whole lot about them and their context within faith. To me it sounds like you are making a lot of unfair judgements and assumptions.
Jon says:
[quote:1utotqlc]Ron, it appears there are much larger issues at hand than just the simple talk which we are speaking about. You are making assumptions about a lot of other Catholic practices that we have never even covered or even why they exist. You’ve been witholding that from this conversation unfairly[/quote:1utotqlc].
I’ve gone slow – taking one issue – is that unfair? No that is what the orderly way is. As for the assumptions, its true, there is much we haven’t covered yet – but let’s stick to the topic at hand – or Am I going to lose you again?
Bottom line – only one way to salvation and let’s see who qualifies by thier beliefs – rght?
[quote:2xa2mggb]
I’ve gone slow – taking one issue – is that unfair? No that is what the orderly way is. As for the assumptions, [b:2xa2mggb]its true[/b:2xa2mggb], there is much we haven’t covered yet – but let’s stick to the topic at hand – or Am I going to lose you again?
[/quote:2xa2mggb]What I bolded is exactly what irks us. You have not shown to understand the Catholic Church to even say such thing. I hope this type of thing does not continue.
Hello Victor, you said:
[quote:3tcjhwn5]What I bolded is exactly what irks us. You have not shown to understand the Catholic Church to even say such thing. I hope this type of thing does not continue. [/quote:3tcjhwn5]What I understand is that the Roman Catholic Church is juzt another deception for so many that desire to be with the Biblical Jesus Christ.
What irks me is that so many have this thing called pride that doesn’t allow for them to see I am not the enemy, I simply love God and as He desires, He wishes that all could be saved. I spent 40+ years as a good Catholic until I looked at Scriptures for myself. The difference is there if one swallows their pride long enough to consider the consequences. [/quote]
[quote:38t3zmiq]What I understand is that the Roman Catholic Church is juzt another deception for so many that desire to be with the Biblical Jesus Christ.[/quote:38t3zmiq]
And that right there is our problem. You really don’t care what we have to say. You’re not interested in learning in what the TRUE Catholic position is. You have your preconceived notions and that’s good enough for you. Now you’ve come to “evangelize” us.[quote:38t3zmiq]What irks me is that so many have this thing called pride that doesn’t allow for them to see I am not the enemy, I simply love God and as He desires, He wishes that all could be saved. I spent 40+ years as a good Catholic until I looked at Scriptures for myself. The difference is there if one swallows their pride long enough to consider the consequences.[/quote:38t3zmiq]
Wow, speak for yourself, dude. I think you have pride issues of your own.
Jon says:
[quote:xr3ngifd]And that right there is our problem. You really don’t care what we have to say. You’re not interested in learning in what the TRUE Catholic position is. You have your preconceived notions and that’s good enough for you. Now you’ve come to “evangelize” us. [/quote:xr3ngifd]So first comes the “pride” issue, next comes the “anger” followed by the closed minds? I have been truthful, flowed along with the talk, but it appears to me like you are done? Why is that? So is this board like the rest – [b:xr3ngifd][color=darkred:xr3ngifd]”not open, our minds are made up,don’t tell us anymore!” [/color:xr3ngifd][/b:xr3ngifd]
All I can do is try, have a nice eternity, you’ll know where to find me at
http://www.freeweb.com/gospellightmin/Ron, you’re so closed-minded you don’t even get it!
You are refusing what we say just like you think we are refusing what you say. I’m not so sure you’re any better than us.
In order to have a dialogue both sides must be open to what the other is saying. We are open. You seem not to be, that’s your choice.
Ron, what I am angry about is that you don’t don’t even show that you are listening to us. It really seems like you don’t care what the Catholic position is and instead there are preconceived ideas about the Catholic Church you have stuck in the back of your head that you read into what we type. That’s not really sticking to one single issue, now is it?
If you want to admit defeat, that’s fine. Otherwise we’d love to stay around and chat.
Ron, you mention in your testimony of faith[/url:2gl1yblj] that James 2:10-11 proved to you that the notion of venial sins is ridiculous.
[quote:2gl1yblj]For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.[/quote:2gl1yblj]
I guess what I find strange here is that you are quoting a passage about observing the law…hmmm…. Why does the law even matter if you are already saved?Also, 1 John 5:17 tells us that all wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. Hmmm…sure sounds like there’s different levels of sins. Sounds just like mortal (deathly) and venial (not as serious) sins! Interesting….
Lets clear some things up Jon
1 – I gave the wrong address (Human mistake again)
http://www.freewebs.com/gospellightmin/2 – I did not give up
3 – I would gladly stick around if we can discuss these issues
4 – Jon says [quote:1olhfi06]
I guess what I find strange here is that you are quoting a passage about observing the law…hmmm…. Why does the law even matter if you are already saved? [/quote:1olhfi06]As I’ve said as evidence of one’s salvation, we must stive to obey (otherwise my faith would just be words)
[quote:1olhfi06]
Also, 1 John 5:17 tells us that all wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. Hmmm…sure sounds like there’s different levels of sins. Sounds just like mortal (deathly) and venial (not as serious) sins! Interesting….[/quote:1olhfi06]Two verses – Romans 6:23 – The wages of sin is death
note – sin is sigular
Revelation 21:27 – nothing unclean enters Heaven
No sin enters Heaven[quote:1olhfi06]Ron, you’re so closed-minded you don’t even get it![/quote:1olhfi06]
Why is that bad if I see where you are coming from? I’ve seen all these
arguments before. I’ve tried not to be rude, simply quoting the Bible. Of course when I get huffed and puffed at, then I am not as polite, and I apologize for those times! You Jon have not seemed like to bad of a guy, likeable at times, okay?
Ron[quote:27lpvdri]4 – Jon says [quote:27lpvdri]
I guess what I find strange here is that you are quoting a passage about observing the law…hmmm…. Why does the law even matter if you are already saved? [/quote:27lpvdri]As I’ve said as evidence of one’s salvation, we must stive to obey (otherwise my faith would just be words)[/quote:27lpvdri]
So…in other words you have to actually [b:27lpvdri]do something[/b:27lpvdri] or else you’re not really saved, right? Sounds like salvation is a process that is dependant upon works to me. Quite different from what you have tried to explain in the past.[quote:27lpvdri]Two verses – Romans 6:23 – The wages of sin is death
note – sin is sigular
[/quote:27lpvdri]
But Ron, how do you reconcile that the Bible, [b:27lpvdri]the Bible itself[/b:27lpvdri], says that not all sin is deadly and the wages of sin is death? Perhaps there’s a deeper meaning.
Jon
[quote:optn8naz]So…in other words you have to actually do something or else you’re not really saved, right? Sounds like salvation is a process that is dependant upon works to me. Quite different from what you have tried to explain in the past. [/quote:optn8naz]Did you forget what I said earlier? about the sin issue – nothing I do can cleanse us – Jesus did that already – the difference lies in the fact that as a Catholic, your religious actions prove you don’t believe as in priestly confessions – you walk out after thinking you’re cleansed – then you go out drinking or whatever until the next confession – and this cycle continues – so where are you trusting that you’re cleansed – the Saturday confessional because you’ve been taught that the priest can forgive sins – he cann’t but that is a different subject.
[quote:optn8naz]
But Ron, how do you reconcile that the Bible, the Bible itself, says that not all sin is deadly and the wages of sin is death? Perhaps there’s a deeper meaning[/quote:optn8naz]From man’s view some sins “seem” worst then others sins but God is perfect – to Him they all are rejectable until you get born again then you’re forgiven – no problem except for unbelief in the Biblical Jesus
[quote:1e7yeit7]Did you forget what I said earlier? about the sin issue – nothing I do can cleanse us – Jesus did that already[/quote:1e7yeit7]
I never disagreed. But salvation isn’t cleansing – that’s justification. Salvation is our final reward – getting to heaven. Justification, cleansing, is only the beginning part of the process of salvation.Justification = cleansing = being made righteous before God by the blood of the Lamb.
Salvation = final reward for doing the will of the Father until death (if someone is justified).
[quote:1e7yeit7]- the difference lies in the fact that as a Catholic, your religious actions prove you don’t believe as in priestly confessions – you walk out after thinking you’re cleansed – then you go out drinking or whatever until the next confession – and this cycle continues – so where are you trusting that you’re cleansed – the Saturday confessional because you’ve been taught that the priest can forgive sins – he cann’t but that is a different subject.[/quote:1e7yeit7]
Gee, I suppose after I go out drinking I sleep with 5 women too. :rolleyes: Thanks for making an assumption about my moral character.Read John 20:21-23 – Jesus gives the power to confess sins to the apostles. Read 2 Cor. 5:16-20 – Paul, an apostle, speaks about the ministry of reconciliation (bringing people back to Christ if their relationship is not right i.e. if they have sinned). Paul shows that the Apostles do this ministry on behalf of Christ (as ambassadors) and that the power to do such comes from Christ. That’s what’s happening in the confessional. The priest is representing Christ and it’s Christ that forgives sins, not the priest. I am totally trusting in Christ.
[quote:1e7yeit7]From man’s view some sins “seem” worst then others sins but God is perfect – to Him they all are rejectable until you get born again then you’re forgiven – no problem except for unbelief in the Biblical Jesus[/quote:1e7yeit7]
But the Word of God says that some sins are not deadly. That means God himself believes that not all sins are equal. It’s impossible for you to deny this and still be telling the truth.
Hello Jon:
Your definition-
[quote:3p00jkka]
Justification = cleansing = being made righteous before God by the blood of the Lamb.Salvation = final reward for doing the will of the Father until death (if someone is justified). [/quote:3p00jkka]
the bibles says – happened instantantaniously when we trust in what Jesus did –
Rom 4:2-5 [color=darkred:3p00jkka] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham [u:3p00jkka]believed [/u:3p00jkka]God, [b:3p00jkka][u:3p00jkka]and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/u:3p00jkka][/b:3p00jkka] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [b:3p00jkka][u:3p00jkka]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness[/u:3p00jkka][/b:3p00jkka][/color:3p00jkka].Gal 3:21,22 -Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Acts 16:31 – And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Ephesians 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also [u:3p00jkka][b:3p00jkka][color=darkred:3p00jkka]after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [/color:3p00jkka][/b:3p00jkka][/u:3p00jkka]
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
These are already justified but still living people. Did you note Romans 4:5 which said “He justifies the ungodly” who believe?Instantanious not a process – why? Because 2 Corinthians 5:21 – For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
How is this done- imputation –
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God i[u:3p00jkka][color=darkred:3p00jkka]mputeth [/color:3p00jkka][/u:3p00jkka]righteousness without works, (KJV)
Rom 4:22- 24 And therefore it was [color=darkred:3p00jkka][u:3p00jkka]imputed [/u:3p00jkka][/color:3p00jkka]to him for righteousness. now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was i[color=darkred:3p00jkka][u:3p00jkka]mputed[/u:3p00jkka][/color:3p00jkka] to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be [color=darkred:3p00jkka][quote:3p00jkka][u:3p00jkka]imputed[/u:3p00jkka][/quote:3p00jkka][/color:3p00jkka], if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;Now as you were saying about the Priests / reconciliation – I wrote 2 articles touching on this at my website http://www.freewebs.com/gospellightmin/articles.htm
article 5 –1) – John 20:23 – “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” Based upon this statement, along with the “binding and loosing” given in Matthew 18, we see the misconception among those who claim their priest or pastor is able to forgive those that come to him. However, using the complete Bible to let Scripture interpret itself, we find that only God can forgive sins, as even the Pharisees knew this (Mark 2:7). And our sins are or aren’t forgiven based upon John 3:36 – “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” So the disciples, having spent three years learning from Jesus, they knew His ways, could now preach and teach to others. As other people heard and believed, they were saved (Ephesians 1:13,14). The disciples could tell if anyone was or wasn’t a follower based upon what that individual beliefs were by what they did and said, “… for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. ….. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned” (Matthew 12:34-37). Thus, the disciples could inform others of whether or not their sins were forgiven based upon whether or not they were believers. One more point here to realize God is in control, not man. For man to have the power to forgive sins, then God would be under man’s control.
And – Article #27 – Ministry of Reconciliation Which is to long for me to paste here – please take the time to read them
Ron
We’ll drop the confession thing for now since the topic is how one is saved.
Ron, all those verses you quoted do nothing more than to prove my point. [b:28z86aje]Justification[/b:28z86aje] is what happens instantly, salvation is the final reward. Salvation is a process that starts with justification.
Okay Jon
[quote:10c9kcdg]
Ron, all those verses you quoted do nothing more than to prove my point. Justification is what happens instantly, salvation is the final reward. Salvation is a process that starts with justification.[/quote:10c9kcdg]okay so you are going to tell me it’s through sacraments and the mass. Right? As in [b:10c9kcdg]”Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith”[/b:10c9kcdg]
[i:10c9kcdg]Then as a grown up who sins we are re-justified, then after another sin we again get re-justified through confessionals[/i:10c9kcdg] then as a last resort [i:10c9kcdg]we get the last rights to finally be justfied[/i:10c9kcdg] and [i:10c9kcdg]if not sure then purgatory fully purifies and we can enter Heaven because we’ve been justified at last.[/i:10c9kcdg] Meanwhile we can recieve graces to help fight these sins by attending mass.
Am I Right?
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