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  • #1988

    F.Martinez
    Member

    I’m a Catechist Instructor of Confirmation and my students are very intrested in the Book of Revelation and “end times.” I briefly told them that the last book in the bible is not about the end of the world/rapture/the apocylpse BUT what it is is the Mass as John saw it. It’s all there: Men in vestments, incense, and altar, a lamb “laying as though slain,” chants of Holy, Holy, Holy and, much much more. When I told them this, they had a hard time believing it because they’ve all bought into the Protestant notion that it’s symbolically speaking of the end of the world. I’m currently reading “The lamb’s supper” by Scott Hahn any additional info that you all would like to share? Thanks!

    #9657

    Deeown
    Member
    "F.Martinez":2931d6u8 wrote:
    I’m a Catechist Instructor of Confirmation and my students are very intrested in the Book of Revelation and “end times.” I briefly told them that the last book in the bible is not about the end of the world/rapture/the apocylpse BUT what it is is the Mass as John saw it. It’s all there: Men in vestments, incense, and altar, a lamb “laying as though slain,” chants of Holy, Holy, Holy and, much much more. When I told them this, they had a hard time believing it because they’ve all bought into the Protestant notion that it’s symbolically speaking of the end of the world. I’m currently reading “The lamb’s supper” by Scott Hahn any additional info that you all would like to share? Thanks![/quote:2931d6u8]
    are you sure its not about end times?

    it seems pretty clear Revelations does speak of the end of times..

    #9658

    LARobert
    Participant

    Even in the Early Church there were those who were caught up in speculating about the end times. There was a problem with new converts even at the time of the Apostles who stopped working and did not contribute to the community, living off others because they saw signs of the end in their day. Throughout history there have been in every generation those who predicted the end in their day.

    Just ten years ago there were predictions of the end of the world as we knew it because of Y2K. One of the predictions was that all the Nuclear Bombs would go off because of computer glitches. Now we have those who cite the Aztec Calenar and other non-Christian predictions to interpret the Bible as 2012 being the end of time.

    As Catholics we believe that one day our Lord will return, and the world as we know it will end. We also place more importance on the end that each of us will face ourselves. Our Lord told us to be watchful, that the end would come as a thief in the night. Evangelical Protestants focus on the end of the world, promoting ideas not found in the Bible like the Rapture. While we cannot judge the souls of others, we see things radically differently than most Evangelicals, Most believe that once they say they accept Jesus, He can’t do anything but save them, even if they reject Him later, He can’t change the fact that they were at one point and forever saved.

    As Catholics we believe that when we enter into a life with Jesus, His graces are a free gift to us, and we need to strive to live a life of holiness, if we fall, we can re-establish our relationship with Jesus, through His grace. So the end of the earth is of lesser importance than how we end our own lives.

    #9659

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster
    "LARobert":1k2ch1y9 wrote:
    Now we have those who cite the Aztec Calenar ….[/quote:1k2ch1y9]
    I believe it’s the Mayan Calendar.
    #9661

    F.Martinez
    Member

    @ Deeown,
    Rev. 1:6, 20:6 – heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.

    Rev. 1:10 – John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.

    Rev. 1:12, 2:5 – there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.

    Rev. 1:13 – Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as “alter Christuses” (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 – priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 – there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 2:17 – there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 – there are priests (“presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 4:8 – heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 – the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:1 – there is a book or scroll of God’s word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:6 and throughout – heaven’s description of Jesus as the “Lamb” is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 – heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 – there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 – heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 6:9 – the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.

    Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 – there is the sign of the cross (“tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 7:9; 14:6 – the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.

    Rev. 8:1 – the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 – there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.

    Rev. 11:12 – the phrase “come up here” is similar to the priest’s charge to “lift up your hearts” at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 – heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 12:7 – heaven’s emphasis on the Archangel Michael’s intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 14:4 – there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.

    Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 – there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 15:3-4 – there is the recitation of the “Gloria” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 15:5 – there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 17, 19:9 – the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 – there is the recitation of the “Alleluia” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Yeah, it’s about the Mass and why wouldn’t it be? To the early Christians the Eucharist was everything, and no doubt, also to John. The book was so confusing to Martin Luther (he was misinterpreting it) that he wanted to scrap it in the same way he did away with the apocryphia. Read the book with this in mind and it makes all of the sense in the world what John is describing.

    #9662

    MikeReilly
    Member

    Reference Book entitled “The Tend Time” (ISBN 978-0-9802028-0-9)

    Your review of the referenced book is suggested. It analyzes the Bible’s Book of Revelation and events surrounding the related end time anticipated. There have been any number of books addressing these subjects in current times, but yet one more is proposed for very good reason. “The Tend Time” is distinctly unique in that it provides an insight into Revelation heretofore unavailable.

    This insight, in turn, has been afforded by the identification of a new name for the value 666 cited in Revelation 13: 18. Such identification has been made possible by a recent international agreement assigning new and unique numerical values to letters of western hemisphere languages. The name identified has in turn resulted in an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that speaks for itself. As such, it is worthy of the interest of all who search for a better understanding of this Biblical book. Specifically,

    ·It explores current world events within the context of Biblical prophecies.
    ·It provides a comprehensive and rational analysis of this subject matter that is notably consistent with Catholic doctrine.
    ·And it is a must read for anyone seeking Christian perspective and answers not otherwise available.

    A synopsis as well as a review of the book by BookReview.com are provided at it’s listing in the book department at Amazon.com. For your convenience, an Adobe Acrobat rendition of the book of about one megabyte can be emailed as an attachment for an initial review. Please provide a forwarding email address for this purpose by reply to this message.

    Thank you,

    MikeReilly
    :cool:

    #9663

    LARobert
    Participant

    Thanks Jon, yup, it is Mayan and not Aztec. Good thing I did not upset anyone who was Tolmec here….. Then all three tribes would be upset with me.

    As to the High priest wearing vestments and the priest at Catholic altars wearing vestments. While the priest in front of us is an Alter Christus, and by the virtue of Apostolic Succession and the unbroken line of laying on of hands he is authorized and empowered to offer sacrifice for us. We cannot forget that while he is given a share of Christ’s priesthood, as all baptized people are (not in the sacerdotal sense to non-ordained) but that at every Mass the primary priest as well as the victim is Christ Himself. So while we do see the priest offering the Mass, only a few very holy souls have seen that in actuality, through the hands of the priest, it is Jesus who offers the Mass for us, as the primary priest in every Mass on earth as it is in heaven.

    #9665

    Deeown
    Member
    "F.Martinez":3fvyn0vg wrote:
    @ Deeown,
    Rev. 1:6, 20:6 – heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.

    Rev. 1:10 – John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.

    Rev. 1:12, 2:5 – there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.

    Rev. 1:13 – Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as “alter Christuses” (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 – priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 – there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 2:17 – there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 – there are priests (“presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 4:8 – heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 – the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:1 – there is a book or scroll of God’s word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:6 and throughout – heaven’s description of Jesus as the “Lamb” is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 – heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 – there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 – heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 6:9 – the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.

    Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 – there is the sign of the cross (“tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 7:9; 14:6 – the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.

    Rev. 8:1 – the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 – there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.

    Rev. 11:12 – the phrase “come up here” is similar to the priest’s charge to “lift up your hearts” at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 – heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 12:7 – heaven’s emphasis on the Archangel Michael’s intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 14:4 – there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.

    Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 – there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 15:3-4 – there is the recitation of the “Gloria” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 15:5 – there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 17, 19:9 – the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth.

    Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 – there is the recitation of the “Alleluia” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.

    Yeah, it’s about the Mass and why wouldn’t it be? To the early Christians the Eucharist was everything, and no doubt, also to John. The book was so confusing to Martin Luther (he was misinterpreting it) that he wanted to scrap it in the same way he did away with the apocryphia. Read the book with this in mind and it makes all of the sense in the world what John is describing.[/quote:3fvyn0vg]
    what about all the verses of the angels pouring out their bowls and plagues upon the earth? what about the best that will rise out of the ocean and causeth all both rich and poor to recieve a mark and it even tells us hints as how to find his name (666) i mean honestly revelations sounds much more like an apocalypse than a mass…

    #9667

    hi sir deeown!

    could you please check out this link and tell me what you think? http://www.catholictelevision.org/podcast/s1e5.mp3

    this is a catholic interpretation of revelation
    just wanna hear from ya
    thanks!

    #9676

    Deeown
    Member
    "passionately_catholic":q7ml6rf0 wrote:
    hi sir deeown!

    could you please check out this link and tell me what you think? http://www.catholictelevision.org/podcast/s1e5.mp3

    this is a catholic interpretation of revelation
    just wanna hear from ya
    thanks![/quote:q7ml6rf0]
    thank you passionatley Catholic! I must say I did not finish this completley but i finished more than half and this was quite interesting to hear such a new view on this book. This is, however, a very contrary idea and revolutionary idea if you will to what i have always learned. I cannot make a very clear decision from this. I am more of someone who needs to hear both sides and make a clear logical decision. I may try to have someone who is reformed or non denominational or Protestant to listen to this and give me his view point. thank you though!

    #9677

    LARobert
    Participant

    While there have been those predicting the end of the world and the return of Jesus, from the days of the Apostles, the Evangelical Christian interpretation of Revalation (or the Apocalypse as Catholics call it) with rapture etc is only about 100 to 150 years old.

    #9679

    here’s some more fascinating Catholic interpretations of revelation, courtesy of Dr. Scott Hahn and Catholic answers…

    http://www.catholic.com/audio/1999a/mp3/ca991214.mp3
    http://www.catholic.com/audio/1999a/mp3/ca991221.mp3

    ENJOY!!! <img src=” title=”Very Happy” />

    #9899

    James
    Member
    "F.Martinez":jxwi7axj wrote:
    The book was so confusing to Martin Luther (he was misinterpreting it) that he wanted to scrap it in the same way he did away with the apocryphia.[/quote:jxwi7axj]
    From where did you find this information, F. Martinez? I would certainly like to look into this further. And may I ask if you’re a priest? If you’re not, I’m sorry about my mistake <img src=” title=”Razz” /> but if you are, may I ask what subject you majored in when you were in seminary?
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