Non-Catholic asked: “DID THE BIBLE STATE PETER FIRST POPE?”

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This topic contains 4 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Joxios 3 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #2100

    Hello all,

    I recently joined because I’m researching about this very influential Church here in the Philippines called “Church of Christ” or “Iglesia ni Cristo” in Filipino. One of their members asked me the other day, why Catholics believe so deeply that Peter was first Pope which “we” apparently strongly base on Acts chapter 15. He kind of had a valid point and pin-pointed this verse in Acts 15:19, “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God.”

    His argument was that if Peter was the so called Pope and held infallibility and authority of all other Apostles, why did Apostle James clearly state, “I JUDGE” not, “THIS IS WHAT PETERE JUDGES”, nay “THIS IS WHAT PETER AND I JUDGE” – clearly giving full authority of the meeting-and overall the brethren. Then he concluded that Apostle James isn’t the founder of the Church or first pope, but only that he was the governing Apostle after the succession of the Christ Jesus.

    He also wondered why Catholics use “Pope” and why Catholics claim infallibility of all Popes when the Scriptures in the NT have no teaching from Christ or God that adores them with such.

    Please reply back to me so I can set this cult member straight.

    Thanks so much

    Jeffito

    [quote:3pehnxrd]If God wasn’t real, would there really any need to make Him up?[/quote:3pehnxrd]

    #10252

    LARobert
    Participant

    Jeffito:

    Welcome.

    While the Iglesi Ni Christo is not Trinitarian, and believes it’s founder to be the Second coming of Christ, the first error is to limit any and all doctrine to the Bible. The Bible nowhere says Trinity, or that Sunday is now the official day of worship, but most Christians accept these as a matter of fact. The entire New Testament is itself the product of a Catholic Council which was approved by the Pope. If one denies that authority, they would need to review all the books that were accepted by local Churches up to that time and decide for themselves which books are authentically Biblical.

    Again we have a case of someone picking one scriptural passage and ignoring the rest. Jesus Christ’s calling the apostle Peter “rock”: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18) is ignored or explained away as Jesus just saying something confusing. While the Catholic Church does recognize that the Apostles did in fact each go on their own missions, and James remained in Jerusalem to lead the Church there, it was Peter who was considered the leader of the whole Church. When the names of all the Apostles are listed in the NT, Peter’s name comes first. At the Council of Jerusalem, Paul argues against Peter, but ends up accepting Peter’s authority. Peter stands up in the Upper Room and at the Council of Jerusalem. If James was the leader as they claim, it would have been wrong for Peter to make the final authoratative procolmation.

    As to the idea that all Popes are infallible, that is true, but it is not true in the sense that Protestants charge. The Pope is infallible under specific narrowly defined limits. First unlike may Protestants believe, Infallibility has little to do with the man, but is a promise of Christ to the Office of the Papacy. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). In a special way this promise of Christ applies to the Pope when he defines a dogma to the entire Church, in the fullness of his authority, on a matter of Faith or Morals. Since this is a rare occurance, and not an everyday event, (in fact most theologians only cite two occasions that Papal Infallibility has been invoked) most Protestants give more infallible authority to their pastors, and the founders of their sects without knowing it than the Catholic Church gives to the Pope.

    The English word Pope comes from Papa, which means Father. While Protestants will tell you that Jesus said, “Call no man Father” what Jesus was relating to us is that God is the highest authority, and who we must know to be our creator. St. Paul speaks of being a Spiritual Father to those he has baptized, and taught. None who say that you cannot call a priest or the Pope Father, would think it wrong to call their own father by that name or honor him as such. Otherwise we would have to reject the command to “Honor thy father and mother.”

    #10268

    Hi LARobert,

    we just got off mid-terms, sorry for the late reply. First thing tomorrow morning I’m looking into this so don’t think I have neglected the forums… =).

    Like the great Terminator would say, “I’ll be back”…soon*

    #10274

    Hi LARobert,

    I apologize, I realize now that I actually brought up 3 arguments to this particular Topic when it was just one (the 3 being – the basis Catholics use for Acts chapter 15, the infallibility of Popes, and the etymology and Biblical proof of the actual usage of “Pope”.)

    Allow me to clarify and hit one knock out one question at a time if you don’t mind.

    Firstly, the basis on the book of Acts and if Peter was in fact the Administrator or head “Pope”(Apostle) back in the first Century. Again my friend wanted me to inquire and examine that particular argument given earlier from the book of Acts, chapter 15. Regarding the Church Decision and whom the authority was given back in the first century Church.

    He then also coupled his argument with supporting verse, Acts 8:14 NKJV
    Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,”

    Now if Peter was the Administrator, why then would Peter be sent by the Apostles in Jerusalem. [God sent Christ – through His Authorship, never Christ sent God] <— Example.

    #10294

    Joxios
    Member
    "Jeffitocorpuz":1yf7yh9s wrote:
    Hello all,

    His argument was that if Peter was the so called Pope and held infallibility and authority of all other Apostles, why did Apostle James clearly state, “I JUDGE” not, “THIS IS WHAT PETERE JUDGES”, nay “THIS IS WHAT PETER AND I JUDGE” – clearly giving full authority of the meeting-and overall the brethren. Then he concluded that Apostle James isn’t the founder of the Church or first pope, but only that he was the governing Apostle after the succession of the Christ Jesus.

    He also wondered why Catholics use “Pope” and why Catholics claim infallibility of all Popes when the Scriptures in the NT have no teaching from Christ or God that adores them with such.

    Jeffito

    [quote:1yf7yh9s]If God wasn’t real, would there really any need to make Him up?[/quote:1yf7yh9s]
    [/quote:1yf7yh9s]
    Pope comes from Papa as in spiritual father, which Paul claims to be to Timothy and Titus, Ones’imus,
    RSV:
    1Ti 1:2 “[b:1yf7yh9s]To Timothy, my true child in the faith[/b:1yf7yh9s]: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (cf 2Tim 1:2, 1Cor 4:17,

    Tts 1:4 [b:1yf7yh9s]To Titus, my true child in a common faith: [/b:1yf7yh9s]Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior

    Phm 1:10 I appeal to you for my child, Ones’imus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment.

    Show this Biblical precedent for God to appoint one man over His people

    Moses as Priest, Prophet, prince over Israel, and the asks the LORD God to appoint his successor:

    Num 27:15 Moses said to the LORD,
    16 “Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, [b:1yf7yh9s]appoint a man over the congregation,[/b:1yf7yh9s]

    17 who shall go out before them and come in before them, [b:1yf7yh9s]who shall lead them out and bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep which have no shepherd.”[/b:1yf7yh9s]

    18 And the LORD said to Moses,[b:1yf7yh9s] “Take Joshua[/b:1yf7yh9s] the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and [b:1yf7yh9s]lay your hand upon him[/b:1yf7yh9s];

    19 cause him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and all the congregation, and [b:1yf7yh9s]you shall commission him in their sight.[/b:1yf7yh9s]

    20 You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.

    21 And he shall stand before Elea’zar the priest, who shall inquire for him by the judgment of the Urim before the LORD; at his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he and all the people of Israel with him, the whole congregation.”

    22 And [b:1yf7yh9s]Moses did as the LORD commanded him; [/b:1yf7yh9s]he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea’zar the priest and the whole congregation.

    Num 27:23 and he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him as the LORD directed through Moses.

    Isa 22:15 Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him:….

    Isa 22:20 In that day I[b:1yf7yh9s] will call my servant Eli’akim [/b:1yf7yh9s]the son of Hilki’ah,

    :21 and [b:1yf7yh9s]I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand;[/b:1yf7yh9s] and [b:1yf7yh9s]he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.[/b:1yf7yh9s]

    22 And [b:1yf7yh9s]I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David;[/b:1yf7yh9s] he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

    Jesus as God, Prophet, priest, King appoints Peter [the first man to recognize Him as the Christ] by making him head steward by giving him the keys til his return.

    Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    b[i:1yf7yh9s]inding and loosing are judicial terms, Peter was First to receive, the other apostles later Matt 18:18.[/i:1yf7yh9s]

    Jesus placed Peter first!

    [u:1yf7yh9s]Eph 2:20[/u:1yf7yh9s] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

    The bible isn’t specific whether or not if christ lay His hands on the Apostles, however in John Christ gives them the holy spirit, by making the Apostles New Creations by Breathing the Holy Spirit into them.

    [u:1yf7yh9s]Jhn 20:22[/u:1yf7yh9s] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus calls Peter Son of Jonah, a prophet sent by God to minister to the Gentiles of Ninevah.

    Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    [i:1yf7yh9s]Jesus reveals to[b:1yf7yh9s] Peter that he spoke by divine inspiration, [/b:1yf7yh9s]even if he didn’t even know it at the time.[/i:1yf7yh9s]

    For somebody of No account, Peter is the most mentioned 156x in 150 verses. That’s significant in itself.

    God bless,
    John

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