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[quote:36x8xn99]Annulments – The Church tells (for a small fee) that one’s marraige was never acceptable in God’s eyes for a number of reasons and declares it to never have happened [/quote:36x8xn99]
Well finally, you did one thing you where asked. You answered a question. You where honest about your feelings, this is the first step in your recovery. Yes you’ve provem youself angry, some day we may get to the source of your anger, the source of the pain. This however is a good start, I’ll leave you and your problems with the Church to Lady and the Saints. As now you have finally lashed out in words of your own rather than hiding behind the words and works of others that you claim as your own, now you can start on the path to healing. I’m afraid like an onion you will still have layers to peel away, but for now you have made a big step, CONGRATULATIONS.
You may reject what the Church has recieved from the Apostles today, but this first crack gives me hope that given time, you too, like Scott Hahn, Keating, Armstrong and other former anti-Catholic bigots, you will one day soon be back in the bosom of our Lady, as she presents you back to her son Jesus. You may for the time being simply remain angry and vengeful, continue to call Armstrong, Keating and Hahn’s books evil without cracking open the cover, out of fear that you can’t answer their points honestly, but soon, very soon, I have faith you will return home to Christ and His Church.
For the time being I’ll just watch what you post, expecting even more venom to flow as you vent it out of your system, but I can already see by your last post that all the saints in heaven have made headway as they join us sinners on earth in praying for your return where like the prodigal son, we will welcome you as our brother back into the home of your Father. I won’t reply to your outbursts for the time being, but be assured, you will remain in my prayers.
Mr. LARoberts says:
[quote:259xo3kk]Well finally, you did one thing you where asked. You answered a question. You where honest about your feelings, this is the first step in your recovery[/quote:259xo3kk].
[b:259xo3kk]All I will say here is that finally you see I’ve been honest and sincere the whole time. But your l letter shows that you’d make a poor doctor in your remedy.[/b:259xo3kk][quote:259xo3kk] I have faith you will return home to Christ and His Church. [/quote:259xo3kk]
[b:259xo3kk]understand this if you can – I’m already there, you are the one that isn’t![/b:259xo3kk][quote:259xo3kk]I won’t reply to your outbursts for the time being, but be assured, you will remain in my prayers.[/quote:259xo3kk]
[b:259xo3kk]You probably would reply if you were able to.[/b:259xo3kk]
[color=blue:16lfow8d]As you and I well know one cannot enter heaven even with a speck of sin on ones soul,so say you get up at 6am and by 9am one commits some sins(through thought,word or deeds)and are driving on the highway get into a accident and die immediately(no chance to repent).What happens to that person?[/color:16lfow8d]
If they’ve trusted in the shed blood of Christ for their sins, then they’d go to Heaven, if not they’d go to Hell. It is a simple John 3:16 question.
Again I ask you “what sins would Jesus have not died for”
[color=darkblue:19hz1xqg]Yes I’m gonna say it, I agree with Ronald on this one.[/color:19hz1xqg]
[quote:1bzevq87]If they’ve trusted in the shed blood of Christ for their sins, then they’d go to Heaven, if not they’d go to Hell. It is a simple John 3:16 question.
Again I ask you “what sins would Jesus have not died for”[/quote:1bzevq87]
[color=red:1bzevq87]I must be missing something,I and I think most Christians believe above quote.Say a person held up a bank and shot and killed the teller(and the robber is a Christian)and while speeding away gets into a accident and dies,you mean to tell me the robber goes to heaven???I DONT THINK SO.[/color:1bzevq87]
Skimming through this has been entertaining to see how a non Catholic tries to justify his attacks upon the Church. These unceasing attacks by his ilk were one of the main reasons I reverted, after all it was Christ Himself who promised we would suffer persecution for His sake. I doubt he spends time on a Presbyterian site arguing against their beliefs.
One point about annulments though; they don’t require “a small fee”. My first marriage was recognized by the Church and upon it’s end I applied for an annulment and received it. At absolutely no charge, zero dinero required.
But I’m sure our resident Catholic basher will deny the possibility of that. That removes one of the favorite themes against Catholicism, i.e. that the clergy are made up of worshippers of Mammon.
Weathers states
[quote:147i8piv]I must be missing something,I and I think most Christians believe above quote.Say a person held up a bank and shot and killed the teller(and the robber is a Christian)and while speeding away gets into a accident and dies,you mean to tell me the robber goes to heaven???I DONT THINK SO.[/quote:147i8piv]
Yes you are. I would highly doubt it too because a true Christian has a changed heart to do what pleases God, not rob a bank and kill someone. If He was however perhaps that accident was not accidental at all for God disciplines His children….now don’t go away with out answering the question – what sins did Jesus not die for that you doubt His ability to clean one’s soul?
[quote:2r33uoiy]Yes you are. I would highly doubt it too because a true Christian has a changed heart to do what pleases God, not rob a bank and kill someone. If He was however perhaps that accident was not accidental at all for God disciplines His children….now don’t go away with out answering the question – what sins did Jesus not die for that you doubt His ability to clean one’s soul?[/quote:2r33uoiy]
Ron, do you understand the implications of what you just said? I knew that was the answer you were going to give too.You more or less said:
[b:2r33uoiy] ¬? [/b:2r33uoiy]Real Christians don’t sin
[b:2r33uoiy] ¬? [/b:2r33uoiy]God uses tragedies to discipline people
Upon turning one’s life over to God one does not forfeit free will. Real Christians do sin and the notion that they can’t is utterly ridiculous. You’re blinding yourself by thinking you can’t sin. (1 John 1:
Again, we have free will. God doesn’t smite people like he did during the times of the Old Testament. He reserves that time for when you die and you will be judged. He uses hardships to draw people closer to him, but not to punish.
[quote:28b5dztm]Yes you are. I would highly doubt it too because a true Christian has a changed heart to do what pleases God, not rob a bank and kill someone. If He was however perhaps that accident was not accidental at all for God disciplines His children….now don’t go away with out answering the question – what sins did Jesus not die for that you doubt His ability to clean one’s soul?[/quote:28b5dztm]
This does point out some of the problems inherent in Protestantism. The listing is not comprehensive.
1. The subjectiveness of the Protestant position, once again everyone his own Pope. The difference is there are no limits to what the individual Popes can say and do. In the Catholic Church the Pope is limited in his infallibility and Jurisdiction. While a Catholic Pope may proclaim solemnly based on evidence that someone is now among the blessed in Heaven, and place their name on the Canon of Saints, and may (as may a Council ratified by the Pope) pronounce an Anathema*, he does not proclaim someone to be in Hell, as only God can judge the internal motivation of someone. In Protestantism each person can simply pronounce, “He/She is (was) not a real Christian because He/She did not live up to what I define through my personal interpretation of the Scriptures.
2. Authentic interpretation of Scripture. In the Catholic Church, (we will set aside Oral Tradition for the moment) The Sacred Scriptures are preserved and studied in the context of (not an exaustive list, but the most important considerations) the language, culture and time they where written. Not equal to but important in deciphering what the Scriptures tell us, we have the writings of the Early Church and Church Fathers, these men where the desciples of the Apostles, or their immediate successors. They heard the explanation of the Faith, both of the Biblical and extra-Biblical accounts straight from the Apostles, and desciples who where first hand hearers of the words spoken by the Word. With regard to original languages, I’ve brought up before, the greek text as written by St. Paul, (confirmed by recent discoveries of first and second century fragments of the NT books) use the term [b:28b5dztm][u:28b5dztm]Is in the process of saving us[/u:28b5dztm][/b:28b5dztm] where the english translation is rendered saved. As Catholics we know that our salvation is not dependent on a split second “decision for Christ” and a one time “accepting Him as our Savior” but is rather begun at the waters of baptism, where supernatural grace and true faith is given us by the merits of Christ. The Sacraments, are external signs of what Christ promised in scripture He would do, and are also a sign of our submission to Christ and his instructions to the Apostles, as to what they are commissioned to do. “Go therefore and preach…baptizing…” knowing we would fall after coming to him because of our own weakness He gave us other helps for the journey of salvation, (or the good race as St. Paul calls it.) He gave authority for the Apostles to forgive sins, something He himself was questioned about by the religious authorities of His day.
Protestants vary, some say that study of the greek is essential, and understanding the culture and phrases of the day are helpful, others say only their translation and God’s inspiration of them is essential or proper.
The fruits of the second are Babble, One sect splitting off from the next, Churches composed of “Saved” and “Unsaved” upon which there is no agreement, and one can be denounced if they do or say something that “God inspired them to do” that is not communicated by God to another when he reads the same Scripture Passage. As an example the Disciples of Christ Sect. The sect split in the mid 20th Century when one faction decided that no musical instruments are mentioned in the NT, so it was a sin to use them. The other faction said that since some Insturments are mentioned in the OT they could be. The Sect split and one holds the other to be unsaved over the use of Musical Instruments. What does that say about Churches that use electronic organs, or electric guitars etc.? Based on this private interpretation which they hold as need informtaion on conduct to be saved, I guess it does not matter if one accepts Jesus, unless one accepts or rejects the acapella Jesus.More later…
Jon, you said:
[quote:3e7e8h1h]Ron, do you understand the implications of what you just said? I knew that was the answer you were going to give too.You more or less said:
Real Christians don’t sin [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Yes I know what I said because that is what sort of what Scriptures say (let me explain) – Romans 6:1,2,6-14[color=red:3e7e8h1h] 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.[/color:3e7e8h1h][quote:3e7e8h1h]God uses tragedies to discipline people[/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Well lets see what Scriptures tell us:
Hebrws 13:8 [color=red:3e7e8h1h]Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.[/color:3e7e8h1h]Hebrews 12:5-11 [color=red:3e7e8h1h]And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
” My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom [u:3e7e8h1h][b:3e7e8h1h]the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives[/b:3e7e8h1h][/u:3e7e8h1h].”7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 [u:3e7e8h1h][b:3e7e8h1h]Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful;[/b:3e7e8h1h][/u:3e7e8h1h] nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.[/color:3e7e8h1h]
[quote:3e7e8h1h]
Upon turning one’s life over to God one does not forfeit free will. Real Christians do sin and the notion that they can’t is utterly ridiculous. You’re blinding yourself by thinking you can’t sin. (1 John 1: [/quote:3e7e8h1h][quote:3e7e8h1h]Again, we have free will. God doesn’t smite people like he did during the times of the Old Testament. He reserves that time for when you die and you will be judged. He uses hardships to draw people closer to him, but not to punish.[/quote:3e7e8h1h]
As you can see, I never said that Christians never sin, but that if the person is really a believer it is most likely that they would not rob or murder anymore for they are a New Creature in Christ – but if they did do that, it isn’t unlikely that the Lord could have caused this accident just as Paul felt if he changed back and didn’t continue in his walk,as 1 Corinthians 9:27 says-[color=red:3e7e8h1h] But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.[/color:3e7e8h1h]Mr. LARoberts says:(I’ll just comment on part 2 of his reply)
2. Authentic interpretation of Scripture. In the Catholic Church, (we will set aside Oral Tradition for the moment) The Sacred Scriptures are preserved and studied in the context of (not an exaustive list, but the most important considerations) the language, culture and time they where written. Not equal to but important in deciphering what the Scriptures tell us, we have the writings of the Early Church and Church Fathers, these men where the desciples of the Apostles, or their immediate successors.
They heard the explanation of the Faith, both of the Biblical and extra-Biblical accounts straight from the Apostles, and desciples who where first hand hearers of the words spoken by the Word.
That does not make them infallible where as The Written word IS such. Further more Daniel 12:4 tells us – [color=red:3e7e8h1h] “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” [/color:3e7e8h1h] we are in that period today of which those did not say much about.
[quote:3e7e8h1h] With regard to original languages, I’ve brought up before, the greek text as written by St. Paul, (confirmed by recent discoveries of first and second century fragments of the NT books) use the term Is in the process of saving us where the english translation is rendered saved. As Catholics we know that our salvation is not dependent on a split second “decision for Christ” and a one time “accepting Him as our Savior” [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
That is an out right false statement – many Scriptures show that one must have that born again DECISION and can know that they were saved and when!
[quote:3e7e8h1h]but is rather begun at the waters of baptism, where supernatural grace and true faith is given us by the merits of Christ. The Sacraments, are external signs of what Christ promised in scripture He would do, and are also a sign of our submission to Christ and his instructions to the Apostles, [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Scriptures show that we are saved by the BLOOD of Jesus, not sacraments -i.e. John 3:16,-[color=red:3e7e8h1h] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, [u:3e7e8h1h][b:3e7e8h1h]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life[/b:3e7e8h1h][/u:3e7e8h1h][/color:3e7e8h1h] 3:36 -[color=red:3e7e8h1h]He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” [/color:3e7e8h1h]Ephesians 1:7- [color=red:3e7e8h1h]In Him you also trusted, [u:3e7e8h1h][b:3e7e8h1h]after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit [/b:3e7e8h1h][/u:3e7e8h1h]of promise[/color:3e7e8h1h],[quote:3e7e8h1h]as to what they are commissioned to do. “Go therefore and preach…baptizing…”[/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Yes after the preaching – the point that one hears and believes, then the baptizing which identifies a believer as such, not that the sacrament saves anyone
[quote:3e7e8h1h]knowing we would fall after coming to him because of our own weakness He gave us other helps for the journey of salvation, (or the good race as St. Paul calls it.) [/quote:3e7e8h1h][quote:3e7e8h1h]He gave authority for the Apostles to forgive sins, something He himself was questioned about by the religious authorities of His day. [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Only God can forgive sins and He cannot break His own Word – see my article about this at
http://www.angelfire.com/crazy3/glm/article5.shtml
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