More History of Catholics “adding to” the Bible

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This topic contains 31 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  LARobert 8 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #1665

    LARobert
    Participant

    Next time a Sola proponent tells you that the Catholic Church tried to supress the Bible, remind them of this bible fact, and ask them if they are going to stop using the Chapters and verses as they are an example of yet another “Catholic Invention”

    The chapter and verse subdivisions of the Bible, the descriptive headings of chapters and the presence of italics, or sloping letters, in the text, did not exist in the original. The division into chapters, which was for greater ease of reading and quotations, was made in the thireenth century by Cardinal Hugo and Archbishop Langton. At a later period, probably 1551, one Robert Stephens made the division into verses. This was long befoe the Reformation, hence, they were Catholic clergy scholars.

    #8247

    Bernardine
    Member

    [color=darkblue:2snoolsm]I always ask, where do think the Bible came from? Who put it together? [/color:2snoolsm]

    #8248

    LARobert
    Participant

    We have all seen what good arguments based on facts do with Fundies. It is to them a matter of, “Don’t confuse the attacks I have been taught about the Catholic Church with Facts!”

    #8249

    LARobert
    Participant

    I found this site while doing some research on Eastern Rite Catholics.
    While much of the information is a review of the Scripture classes I took in both in Undergrad and Grad School, I really like the way the author has laid out the page. Both Scholarly and easy to comprehend for anyone who does not have linguistics training.

    [url:3bzsijbx]http://biblescripture.net/Hebrew.html[/url:3bzsijbx]

    [url:3bzsijbx]http://biblescripture.net/Greek.html[/url:3bzsijbx]

    The same website has this handy history of the Church. Simple yet accurate.

    [url:3bzsijbx]http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/History.html[/url:3bzsijbx]

    #8250

    Ron K
    Member

    Congradulations LARoberts for all of your Book learning at:
    [quote:1vflndhb]
    the Scripture classes I took in both in Undergrad and Grad School[/quote:1vflndhb]

    So I don’t have that stuff, but yet I know what the Bible says about being so wise, and since God is the Author and finisher of my faith, your claims that the Bible is a result of “catholics” falls on deaf ears.

    Here is what Scriptures say: [color=red:1vflndhb]”Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.[/color:1vflndhb]

    Formal knowledge without the right heart can have you filled with a sense of pride – such as the many that rip on “fundies” as if they weren’t Christian

    #8251

    RonK,

    You are Back! Welcome from the darkness into the
    light. We missed you.

    Let me ask you a question: how does one know the Bible is the Word of God?

    Jim

    #8252

    LARobert
    Participant

    St. James:

    You may as well ask Ron by what special powers he can read the souls of those on the forum he has never met, or by what powers of personal paranoia he feels anything that mentions education is a slight at him. (Since you are asking questions he refuses to answer in the first place.)

    I would not waste too much time, as he will very soon be back in the bosom of Holy Mother Church.

    #8253

    Ron K
    Member

    St. James You asked:
    [quote:3sb61vj5] how does one know the Bible is the Word of God? [/quote:3sb61vj5]

    how do I know, well 1 Thess. 2:13 tells us:

    [color=red:3sb61vj5]13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as [b:3sb61vj5]it is in truth[/b:3sb61vj5], the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe[/color:3sb61vj5]

    but of course you’d probably not think that is a good enough reason. Simply put, I’ve never seen an error or mistake yet and all the prophetic areas have come true, sso what else is there that compares with the 100% truth of Scriptures?

    LARoberts asks two questions:

    [quote:3sb61vj5]You may as well ask Ron by what special powers he can read the souls of those on the forum he has never met,[/quote:3sb61vj5]
    Simply knowing God’s way helps because we aren’t judging the people, but we can judge their beliefs, that is why we are to judge everything (check out 1 Corinthians 2:14-16) and test (see 1 Thessalonians 5:21)everything. And since God has only one path to salvation, and it isn’t what or how Catholics are taught, then I don’t need to know each individual. It is the same as John 20:23 was meant to be. (not the creation of your priests)

    [quote:3sb61vj5]or by what powers of personal paranoia he feels anything that mentions education is a slight at him[/quote:3sb61vj5]
    not everything but most of what you post has negative implicatons towards me and other fundamentalists as shown by your next comment –
    [quote:3sb61vj5]Since you are asking questions he refuses to answer in the first place.[/quote:3sb61vj5]

    One more thing in regards to LARoberts closing comment :
    [quote:3sb61vj5]he will very soon be back in the bosom of Holy Mother Church.[/quote:3sb61vj5]
    I’ve told you many times, I am in THE Church, and I will NEVER join thie Catholic Church or any other cult. For all of your “education” what is it about that statment don’t you understand?

    #8254

    Bernardine
    Member

    [color=darkblue:24ia2rxe]Ron, nice to see you slither your way back. By the way, in regards to your last post, you get offended way too easily. [/color:24ia2rxe]

    #8255

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Ron, you can’t prove the Bible is the word of God by quoting the Bible. How does that even make sense to you?

    #8256

    LARobert
    Participant

    How sad that posting replies and resources to questions that may come up by those who have rejected the Church founded by Jesus is taken as a slight. Even more pitiful that admitting that information I learned in Undergrad and Grad School can be improved on, admitting that there is much more that I can learn is a threat to someone who proposes that only his interpretation is correct.

    I know how volitile it must be to someone who claims to have a mastery over the Scriptures, but then again, the Scriptures tell us that the Devil himself can quote Scripture.

    My querie to the entire populus here, (so that one individual does not feel singled out) is which manner of using the Scriptures is more in line with what Jesus taught. Following the guidance of the Scriptures as taught through the means He gave us, (after all He told the Apostles, “He who hears you, hears Me.” ) or basing ones interpretation on the proposition that when I read the Scriptures in a vacuum devoid of the wisdom of the Fathers, who learned at the feet of the Apostles, that my own understanding which contradicts the thousands of other private interpretations is the truth. Is Jesus the Father of Confusion or is He one with His Father, and are we all One with Him?

    #8257

    Subvet
    Member

    I believe the Book of Proverbs warns us not to argue with a fool lest he feel himself wise in his conceit.

    #8258

    Benedict
    Member

    That is true.

    Proverbs is one of my favorite books. It warns us, “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will also be like him,” yet goes on to counsel, “Answer a fool as his folly deserves, that he not be wise in his own eyes.”

    #8259

    Subvet
    Member

    Benedict, ya got me there :lol:

    #8260

    Ron K
    Member

    Jon You say:
    [quote:a0ae6zno]Ron, you can’t prove the Bible is the word of God by quoting the Bible. How does that even make sense to you?[/quote:a0ae6zno]

    I realize that it wouldn’t make sense (unless you were a believer) to do it that way before I said it. However since it speaks for itself and is God’s word, with no errors, I’ll quote it for everything.

    The second part of my post:
    [quote:a0ae6zno]I’ve never seen an error or mistake yet and all the prophetic areas have come true, sso what else is there that compares with the 100% truth of Scriptures[/quote:a0ae6zno]
    still is there, so do you have a book as reliable as the Bible? If so, is it as my Thessalonians quote says, that it’s God’s word not the words of men?

    #8261

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:1xqxrweh]I realize that it wouldn’t make sense (unless you were a believer) to do it that way before I said it. However since it speaks for itself and is God’s word, with no errors, I’ll quote it for everything.
    [/quote:1xqxrweh]
    So, in other words, you have to start with the belief that the Bible is the word of God, first and then use the Bible to prove that. That makes zero sense.

    Saint James’ question was “how does one know the Bible is the Word of God?” and your answer would be “because it just is.” How is that an acceptable proof? It’s not. It’s circular reasoning.

    There are no errors or mistakes in a math textbook and the “prophecies” (formulas and lessons) that lie within one are “fulfilled” (problems and exercises). Does this make a math book the word of God?

    A Muslim will attest the same thing about their Qu’ran as you do the Bible – that all the prophetic areas have come true and it says within the book that it is the word of God. Does that make it so?

    Do you see how your reasoning falls flat?

    #8262

    Ronk,

    “If so, is it as my Thessalonians quote says, that it’s God’s word not the words of men”?

    The question would be: how did the Apostle Paul know that the Old Testament was the Word of God?

    Also, this verse would show the validity of oral tradition because Paul preaching Christ (the New Testament was not completed at this time) and establishing church polity.

    “I realize that it wouldn’t make sense (unless you were a believer) to do it that way before I said it. However since it speaks for itself and is God’s word, with no errors, I’ll quote it for everything. “

    You are missing the point: how do you know it is God’s Word? Someone may write a book without errors, but that does not make it the Word of God.

    Another question would be: how would you know what books to choose to include in the Bible, say when the New Testament canon was formed?

    #8263

    Jon,

    I did not see your last post. I apologize for the repetition.

    Your example of a math book and the Qu’ran is superb.

    #8264

    LARobert
    Participant

    [quote:q48ap2n9]I realize that it wouldn’t make sense (unless you were a believer) to do it that way before I said it. However since it speaks for itself and is God’s word, with no errors, I’ll quote it for everything. [/quote:q48ap2n9]

    Quoting the Bible for everything is just plain foolish, when you do so based on private inspiration, and no understinding of the times, places, people, and their situations. It is also obvious that Protestants do not believe that the Holy Ghost tells them what is true, because we have seen different authors, and “authorities” and Protestant concordinances as well as commentaries quoted when the claim is “I did it on my own.” It has to be one or the other. Either the Bible is so clear that you don’t need any assistance because God will reveal to the true believer what the text means, or you need some help with some of the verses. If one is inspired by private interpretation, and it contradicts another’s inspiration, who is ultimatly correct, and how is that proven? If one needs assistance from time to time, by what authority is that assistance correct.

    The story of creation is told twice in the Bible, in Chapters one and two of Gen. The accounts differ. What answer do we have from the Fundimentalist community about the apparent contradiction? We can start here, and move on to other apparent contradictions.

    As a pre-emtive statement, against attacks that side track the discussion into “Bible Christians” are the only true believers, and Catholic’s don’t believe the Bible is the word of God, because they don’t require the belief in 7 24 hour days. I as a Catholic believe the Bible is the Word of God. Written by men who where inspired by God to write it. God is the Primary Author, without making individual men simple members of a Steno Pool writing verbatum what was dictated to them.

    #8265

    Ron K
    Member

    Jon says:
    [quote:1l043pbq]
    So, in other words, you have to start with the belief that the Bible is the word of God, first and then use the Bible to prove that. That makes zero sense.

    Saint James’ question was “how does one know the Bible is the Word of God?” and your answer would be “because it just is.” How is that an acceptable proof? It’s not. It’s circular reasoning. [/quote:1l043pbq]
    That is only your feelings. It speaks for itself – can you find an error in it?
    I don’t think so, yet there are so many prophetcies such as the virgin birth, Daniels sevenith week, and about our Lord’s death + resurrection and many others that have or will be 100% correct, then you say:

    [quote:1l043pbq]There are no errors or mistakes in a math textbook and the “prophecies” (formulas and lessons) that lie within one are “fulfilled” (problems and exercises). Does this make a math book the word of God? [/quote:1l043pbq]
    No and I bet there were at one time or another there were mistakes made as they did these problems and your books sren’t disussing Heaven or Hell either, so how can you say that they are even relavent to this topic?

    [quote:1l043pbq]A Muslim will attest the same thing about their Qu’ran as you do the Bible – that all the prophetic areas have come true and it says within the book that it is the word of God. Does that make it so? [/quote:1l043pbq]
    And take their book and I would ask how they figure to deal with sin? I don’t think they know, nor does their god die and resurrect! Where as my Bible is about THE one and only God – Now you have three choices
    1 – Jesus was a lier
    2 – Jesus was a lunatic
    3 – JEsus was who He claimed to be and you can believe Him or not?

    [quote:1l043pbq]Do you see how your reasoning falls flat[/quote:1l043pbq]
    I don’t think the Bible is wrong – NO
    But don’t you use the same “circular reasoning?”
    You defend Catholicism with Cstholic material and sources such as
    Catholic Answers or all of the witnesses that you quote even though none are infallble, that is more of an example of what not to trust, then to trust in that God’s word tells us about the past, present, and future. – 100% accurately! even Nostradomus or Jeanne Dixon could do that.


    St. James says:

    [quote:1l043pbq]The question would be: how did the Apostle Paul know that the Old Testament was the Word of God?

    Also, this verse would show the validity of oral tradition because Paul preaching Christ (the New Testament was not completed at this time) and establishing church polity. [/quote:1l043pbq]

    first – Paul wass taught by God (see 2 Corinthians 12:2 -[color=red:1l043pbq]
    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows such a one was caught up to the third heaven.[/color:1l043pbq] and GAlatians 2:1-10 especially verses 7+8 – [color=red:1l043pbq] But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), [/color:1l043pbq]

    secondly – the oral tradtion spoken of was no different then what God
    gave us in the Bible – so that argument means nothing
    [quote:1l043pbq]
    Another question would be: how would you know what books to choose to include in the Bible, say when the New Testament canon was formed?[/quote:1l043pbq]

    God was in control – He says it and it certainly wasn’t by human minds as Peter tells us: 1 Peter 1:11+12, 18-21 – and 23 and 25 —
    [color=red:1l043pbq] searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven…..
    knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, ….Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever…But the word of the LORD endures forever.”[[/color:1l043pbq]
    And 2 Peter 1:20,21 tells us:
    [color=red:1l043pbq] 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God [u:1l043pbq][b:1l043pbq]spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit[/b:1l043pbq][/u:1l043pbq][/color:1l043pbq]

    I don’t have to know everything on How or why we got what we have — but more important is to believe in what it says — unlike your supposedly correct “traditions” which you follow because of men. That would be my question to you-Why?

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