Lying and the Catholic Church

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This topic contains 3 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Joxios 3 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #2082

    leegal
    Member

    From another site: the question is how could there be Saints who used false paperwork to help people “lie” to avoid detection during the war. Wasn’t that a sin of a lie on the part of this Saint — I assume the poster may have been referring to Blessed JPII? Or Pius XII who hid Jewish scholars within the walls of the Vatican and said to do “whatever” on behalf of captive Jews? Saints was unclear but the war was mentioned.

    I said “no” – that there were circumstances and there were circumstances, war being of an entirely different category. If to save a life, we have an obligation to make whatever is necessary to save that life — even false documents in time of war. Likewise the issue of the police officer who kills someone to save an innocent life — is he guilty of the sin of murder? I say the perpetrator has sinned, not the police officer, by his own actions. The military also came into the picture. Basically, Catholics cannot serve in deceptive occupations such as police or the military who employ many avenues of deception such as undercover work. That seems to be the consensus of which I was a minority.

    The consensus seemed to be that the Saint and that police officer have both sinned. So, are those who serve in the military. Sin is sin. All lies are always sins. All killing, in defense of another by one of authority, is a sin.

    I was told that [u:3a0c0ou5]I wanted to change God’s thinking but he will understand why my time will be served in pergatory[/u:3a0c0ou5].

    At that point, I could no longer take the topic seriously.

    I suggested that he need take this up with the Vatican, as I believe that the Churches of Europe used deception to hide Jewish children in Catholic orphanages (false identity) and/or place them in Catholic homes to hide them among Catholic families to avoid detection by Nazis.

    Where is the sin? Am I trying to change God’s thinking around to mine? Maybe the site is too literal for someone like me. Am I more lost than I thought?

    Sorry about the misspelling — I mean lying, not lything.

    #10184

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    I think the important thing to note is that saints are human and did not live perfect lives on Earth. Read up on St. Augustine for proof of this.

    I don’t know that all lies are sin. That seems to be a stretch for me. If by the act of deceit a greater evil is avoided, does that really make it a sin? If so, it’s a venial one (and a laudatory one at that).

    #10187

    leegal
    Member

    Thank you again. I guess the people on the site cannot always be taken so literally. Afterall, the are fallible too. I feared the absolute conviction that a lie is a lie and there are never any reasons to lie — as in to save a life.

    As one poster put it though, he would rather face God and say “I lied” rather than face God and say “I allowed someone to die because I did nothing.”

    I will read St. Augustine. My grandmother quoted him and read him all the time. She often used St. Monica as an example of the wonderful power of prayer.

    #10315

    Joxios
    Member
    "leegal":6cs0r1te wrote:
    …From another site: the question is how could there be Saints who used false paperwork to help people “lie” to avoid detection during the war.

    Wasn’t that a sin of a lie on the part of this Saint — I assume the poster may have been referring to Blessed JPII? Or Pius XII who hid Jewish scholars within the walls of the Vatican and said to do “whatever” on behalf of captive Jews?

    … to save a life, we have an obligation to make whatever is necessary to save that life — even false documents in time of war.

    Likewise the issue of the police officer who kills someone to save an innocent life — is he guilty of the sin of murder? I say the perpetrator has sinned, not the police officer, by his own actions.

    The military also came into the picture. Basically, Catholics cannot serve in deceptive occupations such as police or the military who employ many avenues of deception such as undercover work. That seems to be the consensus of which I was a minority.

    The consensus seemed to be that the Saint and that police officer have both sinned. So, are those who serve in the military. Sin is sin. All lies are always sins. All killing, in defense of another by one of authority, is a sin.

    …., as I believe that the Churches of Europe used deception to hide Jewish children in Catholic orphanages (false identity) and/or place them in Catholic homes to hide them among Catholic families to avoid detection by Nazis.

    Where is the sin? Am I trying to change God’s thinking around to mine? Maybe the site is too literal for someone like me. Am I more lost than I thought?[/quote:6cs0r1te]
    Hi leegal,
    What good would have come out of turning the Jewish people over to the nazis’ They were protecting life of their neighbor. When faced with doing goodnor participating with an evil, we are to choose the good.

    Catholics must never be neutral!
    The sin would have been in the participation with the nazis’.

    [u:6cs0r1te]We have the freedom to [b:6cs0r1te]do the right thing[/b:6cs0r1te][/u:6cs0r1te].

    Augustine wrote on capital punishment, [paraphrased] A person takes a life, does not recognize God in his victim, ergo, loses his right as a man, by making himself a god or beast.

    Protecting the innocent against evil, even at risk to ourselves is righteous.

    Lying to protect something we have done, at the expense of another, for our own welfare [save our own necks] that is a sin against God, because there is nothing righteous in selfishness.

    We do not sin against men[we can hurt them] however, we can only sin against God.

    [quote:6cs0r1te][url:6cs0r1te]http://www.catholicsinalliance.org/catholicsocialteachings.html[/url:6cs0r1te]

    The Catholic Church believes that every human life — whether young or old, guilty or innocent, born or unborn — is both precious and sacred. It remains as the foundation for all principles and elements of social teaching.
    “At the center of all Catholic social teaching are the transcendence of God and the dignity of the human person. The human person is the clearest reflection of God’s presence in the world; all of the Church’s work in pursuit of both justice and peace is d[b:6cs0r1te]esigned to protect and promote the dignity of every person[/b:6cs0r1te]. For each person not only reflects God, but is the expression of God’s creative work and the meaning of Christ’s redemptive ministry.[/quote:6cs0r1te]
    Biblically, in the Book of Tobit, who went against the Assyrians kings’ decree, buried hebrews at sunset, who were thrown over the wall and left to rot in the streets as a warning to others. Depravation of the dead was viewed with horror, So at a risk to his own life, Tobit buried the bodies stealthily. king Sennacherib was told of Tobit’s’ actions and sought to put him to death, His property was confiscated and he lost everything but his wife and son.

    Later, he was rewarded by God who sent an angel to heal and guide him.
    Tobit left these parting words to his children,” Serve God faithfully and do what is right before him…”

    Saints are people who lived exemplary lives in the Lord, who stood up for the faith against evil, as examples Of Christ to all men.

    The Prophets in the bible stood up against Kings/ governments/ authorities and told them what they were doing was not right in the eyes of God.

    Elijah (1Kings 18) proves the prophets of baal are false, and has the people of Israel destroy all 400 of them against the wishes of King Ahab

    God bless,
    John

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