Luther Admitted that the Catholic Church is the True Church

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  • #1650

    The Cub
    Member

    .
    Luther Admitted that the Catholic Church is the True Church

    [color=red:f9ar3m4h][b:f9ar3m4h]The following is from a Lutheran web site;[/b:f9ar3m4h] [/color:f9ar3m4h]Page 265 reads: [color=blue:f9ar3m4h]”[b:f9ar3m4h]Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church.[/b:f9ar3m4h][/color:f9ar3m4h] We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them.”

    [url:f9ar3m4h]http://www.orlutheran.com/html/mlsermjoh1526-1604-2.html[/url:f9ar3m4h]

    Please return to the true Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. Join us in receiving Him in the Holy Eucharist……the closest that a human can be to Jesus on Earth.

    .

    #8114

    Bernardine
    Member

    [color=darkblue:2s7kgfzb]I just don’t understand. If Luther admits this, why is there such thing as the Lutheran denomination? It just doesn’t add up.[/color:2s7kgfzb]

    #8117

    The Cub
    Member

    Bernadine, in a word the answer is : “Pride”.

    #8120

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Luther’s original intention was not to break away from the Church, but to reform it. He was excommunicated.

    Some of the other reformers wanted a total break. The term “Lutheran” might not even come from Luther himself but from other rogue followers that didn’t quite get that he didn’t want to break away.

    #8126

    A Lutheran pastor lent me his copy of a biography of Martin Luther. It was instrumental in my journey back to the Church.

    I agree with Jon: I don’t believe he originally intended to break away from the Church.

    The Reformation seemed to take a life of it’s own. There were different cultural, political forces that contributed to this:

    1) Rising German nationalism. Political forces were anxious to free the bonds of the Papacy. One of the results of the Reformation was state control of the church.

    2) The Gutenberg press. Luther’s 98 thesis was easily distributed to the masses. Nationalism and economic forces harnessed people groups to action.

    3) Luther found himself in the middle of it. He became the focal point whether he liked it or not.

    4) Luther began to like it. The movement began and there was no turning back. I think it came down to try to stay with the Church and get swept away or lead the movement.

    While reading his story I saw a servant of the Church become an enemy of the Church. He used Sola Scriptura to wrestle control away from the Pope and became the new Pope of the new church, controlling the very Scripture he stood for. He deleted books from the OT (can’t have praying for the dead) and also denigrated NT books (calling James an epistle of straw. You know that v, 2:24 problem).

    But Luther still had Catholic truth residing in him, hence startling admissions to that truth. I guess you do have to live with yourself,

    I apologize for being overly simplistic.

    #8128

    LARobert
    Participant

    St. James:

    I don’t think you are being overly sympathetic. I would like to think, and pray that Luther on his deathbed made his peace with God and the Church. Just as others have. I’ve mentioned before one priest who left the Church out of his inability to remain celebate, and came back on his deathbed. The famous historial Will Durant, another who left the Church and wrote some horrible things that he later recanted when nearing the end of his life he returned home to the Church. The problem is that both have books that continue to circulate and while their return to the Church is public knowledge, it does not remove their books which still contain the errors they promulgated.

    As for Luther, Erik Erikson wrote a very compelling forensic psychiatric look at him, his bipolar like manic and depressive states, the problems he had with scruples. His self imposed penances, and wild fits. While it does not remove the fact that millions of souls have been filled with hatred for the Authentic Christ and His Church over the centuries, it does speak of the compassion we should have for Luther, and those who have been seduced by his false teachings, and the perversion of the Message of Christ by those who created the multitude of Protestant Churches since his time.

    #8130

    Ron K
    Member

    Sorry guys but those statements of

    [quote:1vyygnj6]Please return to the true Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. Join us in receiving Him in the Holy Eucharist……the closest that a human can be to Jesus on Earth. [/quote:1vyygnj6]

    are part of what Jesus saaid in Matthew 24:23-25 -[color=red:1vyygnj6] 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand[/color:1vyygnj6]

    #8132

    It is interesting that Luther condemned those who did not adhere to a sacramental understanding of the Eucharist

    #8138

    Ron K
    Member

    just shows he wasn’t infallible either

    #8139

    Can we then say Luther was not infallible when he proclaimed scripture alone or faith alone?

    #8141

    LARobert
    Participant

    [quote:ryhv26ew]It is interesting that Luther condemned those who did not adhere to a sacramental understanding of the Eucharist
    [/quote:ryhv26ew]

    With all his faults (theologically) Dr. Martin at least understood, (unlike Prots who denegrate Christ and the Sacraments He instituted) that the grace that comes as a fruit of the Sacraments is because the primary action is preformed by Christ himself through the means of His minister, not an action preformed by the minister alone. I am careful to use the term minister, as the ministers of the Sacrament of Matrimony are the couple with the priest as witness for the Church, and as a representative of the Church to ask God’s blessing on the marriage. So too with baptism, most Prots think that Catholics only hold a baptism by a RC priest to be vaild, as they think the Sacrament of Orders is held by Catholics to give priests “magic” powers, when in fact we hold that while the ordinary minister of baptism is the Bishop, who most commonly delegates the duty to the Pastor of parishes, and his associates, but in fact any person who has reached the age of reason may validly baptize if they use potable water and the proper form and intention. Why, because it is Christ Jesus who is the prime mover in all the Sacraments, and he used his minister as a means of dispensing His graces. By baptism we area all members of the priesthood (of believers, not to be confused with the sacerdotal priesthood given at orders) to the extent that we accept when we are baptized to become emessaryies of Christ, to spread either by word, or example His message of salvation.

    #8151

    Ron K
    Member

    LARoberts

    I must ask you where you get these ideas from?

    [quote:2z9qm048]Christ and the Sacraments He instituted – that the grace that comes as a fruit of the Sacraments is because the primary action is preformed by Christ himself through the means of His minister?

    the priest as witness for the Church, and as a representative of the Church

    it is Christ Jesus who is the prime mover in all the Sacraments, and he used his minister as a means of dispensing His graces.

    we accept when we are baptized to become emessaryies of Christ, to spread either by word, or example His message of salvation.[/quote:2z9qm048]

    Perhaps with your answers, we can discover the source of why Catholicism is not Christ’s Church.

    #8155

    RonK,

    Can we then say Luther was not infallible when he proclaimed scripture alone or faith alone?

    #8159

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:1i5s030p]Perhaps with your answers, we can discover the source of why Catholicism is not Christ’s Church.[/quote:1i5s030p]
    That’s quite presumptive, Ron. This statement alone shows no openness to discussion, but rather that we will come to your conclusions. It’s nearly impossible to talk with you when you are so narrow-minded.

    #8161

    Ron K
    Member

    Jon you say –
    [quote:2q9suffz]
    It’s nearly impossible to talk with you when you are so narrow-minded[/quote:2q9suffz]

    Narrow minded – yes but isn’t that what its all about?
    [color=red:2q9suffz]”Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.[/color:2q9suffz]- Mathew 7:13,14

    [color=red:2q9suffz]Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me[/color:2q9suffz] – John 14:6

    How many ways does the Bible allow?

    #8167

    RonK,

    I noticed you have yet to respond to my question:

    Can we then say Luther was not infallible when he proclaimed scripture alone or faith alone?

    #8168

    Ron K
    Member

    I mean Luther was not infallible anymore then anyone else is – if they speak what the infallible Bible says as it was meant to be then at that time they are speaking truthful

    where are you going with this?

    #8171

    RonK

    “I mean Luther was not infallible anymore then anyone else is “

    This is precisely the point. How do we know when Luther was teaching truth or error?

    You accept Luther’s teaching regarding to faith and Scripture, but you reject it when he speaks on the sacraments.

    How do know it’s not the other way around?

    You said:

    “if they speak what the infallible Bible says as it was meant to be then at that time they are speaking truthful “

    But Luther would tell you that was what he was doing – speaking what the infallible Bible said. He would tell you to also accept his teaching on the sacraments.

    But you are picking and choosing what you want to believe, basing it on what you believe the Bible is saying. But how do you know that you are right?

    Ron, this has been the problem with Protestantism. The picking and choosing of over 30,000 different denominations, all thinking they got it right.

    My question: how do you know when you are speaking without error concerning the infallible Word?

    #8174

    Ron K
    Member

    Saint James says:

    [quote:od83a5hr]”I mean Luther was not infallible anymore then anyone else is “

    This is precisely the point. How do we know when Luther was teaching truth or error?

    You accept Luther’s teaching regarding to faith and Scripture, but you reject it when he speaks on the sacraments.

    How do know it’s not the other way around? [/quote:od83a5hr]
    First understand this I am not a follower of Martin Luther, although I think he was right for starting the reformation. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and in regards to what I know, I’ll show you from Scriptures where the Gospel is, not some Lutherian whatever. As for faith and Scriptures, I again simply ask you to show me one book or passage that carries the ohmp that the Word of God has, just one, but know that there isn’t anything like it. In regards to Faith alone, our Salvation cannot be earned, it is a free gift through the grace of our Lord and what He did 2000 years ago at Calvary to pay for our sins. Any attempt to merit it nullifies grace. Sacraments are not the means to attain any merits, that is what your church claims but if that was the case we could start to rib out verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3:27-28 and Titus 3:5 from the Bible.

    [quote:od83a5hr]You said:

    “if they speak what the infallible Bible says as it was meant to be then at that time they are speaking truthful “

    But Luther would tell you that was what he was doing – speaking what the infallible Bible said. He would tell you to also accept his teaching on the sacraments.

    But you are picking and choosing what you want to believe, basing it on what you believe the Bible is saying. But how do you know that you are right? [/quote:od83a5hr]
    Why he didn’t see this? Probably the same reason you can’t, as he was fed the same lies, or whatever. But this much I do know, as John 8:31-32 tells us “if we stay in Scriptures, we would know the truth.”

    [quote:od83a5hr]Ron, this has been the problem with Protestantism. The picking and choosing of over 30,000 different denominations, all thinking they got it right. [/quote:od83a5hr]
    Well that is why one must get to know the Word of God then so one can KNOW who is right. I know I don’t want to be someone in which the Lord tells – you error not knowing Scriptures (Matthew 22:29)

    [quote:od83a5hr]My question: how do you know when you are speaking without error concerning the infallible Word?[/quote:od83a5hr]
    Easy – I’ll show you whatever it is about the Bible in which you don’t understand what it is that I’m sayig.

    #8176

    RonK,

    You are proving my point.

    You are trying to prove your point by your own personal point of view.

    You are are explaining the Bible by your own authority.

    Ron, anyone can do this. Mormons, JWs, and Baptists do this.

    It simply isn’t good enough.

    And by the way- faith doesn’t stand alone. Read the verse: “for by GRACE you have been saved through faith…”

    So then it is Grace plus Faith

    Then read v10- ” For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works…”

    So then it is Grace plus Faith = Good Works.

    Remember: faith without works is dead. And we all know a dead faith will not save anyone.

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