Graven Images

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This topic contains 46 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  LARobert 6 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #1690

    LARobert
    Participant

    Let’s forget that God commanded that Cherubs be carved and used to decorate the Temple in Jerusalem, [i:1hjdl4gt][b:1hjdl4gt]after He forbid graven images[/b:1hjdl4gt][/i:1hjdl4gt], or that He commanded that the Children of Israel to look upon the serpents on the pole (graven) if they where bitten by snakes in the Desert ([i:1hjdl4gt][b:1hjdl4gt]after graven images where forbidden[/b:1hjdl4gt][/i:1hjdl4gt]) or that the real prohibition is against falling down to worship statues as gods, [i:1hjdl4gt][b:1hjdl4gt]not[/b:1hjdl4gt][/i:1hjdl4gt] in using images to remind us of those faithful members of the Body of Christ (as the Catholic Church teaches). As images of those who are now giving liturgical worship to God before an altar with golden candlesticks incense and all the trappings that are decried by Protestants about Catholic worship of God ([u:1hjdl4gt][i:1hjdl4gt]as the book of Revelation tells us about the Worship of God in heaven[/i:1hjdl4gt][/u:1hjdl4gt]). Lets forget that Sola Scriptura private interpreters can’t give us any real answer to how the Scriptural Canon was decided on, and just sit back and read over this humerous and true story about a Protestant who took offence to a depiction of friends of God.

    [quote:1hjdl4gt][b:1hjdl4gt]The other day I removed my statues of Mary and St. Francis from out in the yard.

    It bothered me to do that a little, but my Fundamentalist friend across the street explained to me very plainly that we aren’t supposed to make graven images.

    “It’s right there in The Bible,” he said.

    “Really?”

    “Yeah. Statues of Mary, the saints. That’s all idolatry.”

    “Oh gosh, well I sure don’t want to be an idolater.” As I turned to leave, though, I noticed the statues of Mickey and Minnie Mouse in his wife’s flower garden. “Joe,” I said, pointing at the two mice. “I don’t mean to be critical, but aren’t you afraid God will strike you dead for idolatry?”

    “Oh gosh, no,” he said with a smile. “God’s okay with those fellas.”

    “God’s okay with cartoon rodents, but not the Virgin Mother or saints?”

    “Oh, you poor Catholics. You just don’t know The Bible that well, do you?”

    “No, Joe, we sure don’t.” I remembered what he had explained to me last week about how, after the King James Bible dropped out of Heaven into Jesus’s hands, the Catholic Church did everything it could to hide it, from locking it up to burning people at the stake for reading it.

    “You see,” he explained, taking a seat on his porch swing, “in 1 Samuel, chapter 6, when the Philistines stole the Ark of the Lord, God gave them a plague of mice and a bad case of the hemorrhoids.”

    “Ouch.”

    “You’re not kidding, ‘ouch’. Anyway, long story short, those Philistines had to give the Ark back, but they also had to make little golden mice and hemorrhoids so all their problems would go away.”

    “Oh,” I said as everything clicked into place. “So we can have statues of mice and hemorrhoids ‚Äì”

    “And snakes,” he cut in.

    “Of course, snakes,” I said. “Just not the men and women who selflessly gave their lives to Christ?”

    “And definitely not Mary.”

    I left with a good feeling in my heart now that Joe had set everything straight. So, I’ll let St. Francis and the immaculately conceived, ever-virgin Mother of God collect dust in my garage. After all, I found two strange shaped rocks in the woods behind my house. Spray-painted gold, they’ll make for a couple of well-formed hemorrhoids.

    And they’ll look just perfect by the rose bushes out front

    [url:1hjdl4gt]http://apologeticsfromscratch.blogspot.com/[/url:1hjdl4gt]

    [/b:1hjdl4gt][/quote:1hjdl4gt]

    #8392

    Ron K
    Member

    And did He pray to any of those mice statues? I highly doubt it but that’s
    okay for you catholics to do so with your statues? That is the whole point of why not to have Statues
    Even as God had the Isreali people look uon the serpent to get healed, it had to eventually get destroyed because of idolatry- it was only bronse – yet it became a form of idolatry

    We are to pray to God alone!

    #8394

    LARobert
    Participant

    [quote:3mb82cg3]And did He pray to any of those mice statues? I highly doubt it but that’s okay for you catholics to do so with your statues? That is the whole point of why not to have Statues[/quote:3mb82cg3]

    Once again your ignorance, and arrogance in trying to instruct people into a false understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches from your own catechism, (while it may not have the label of Catechism) Hislop, Bottiner, the webpages you use to defend your attack on Christ and His Church are in fact the catechism of misinformation about the Catholic Church. Prayers to statues are forbidden by the Catholic Church, the Worship of Mary and the Saints is forbidden to Catholics; but you’ve been told that before, and rather than listen to truth, you continue to seek after false teachers, who turn their backs on the 2000 year unwavering truth for 16th century men who not only attacked the Catholic Church, but levied horrible insults and condemnations at each other. Good thing you where not in Calvin’s Geneva, you would have been burned at the stake for disagreeing with his private interpretation of the Scriptures, or if you had brought up some of your personal insights in the England of Elizabeth I, let alone the German Lutheran cantons, where you’d have been toast. While man has from the fall needed the atonement of Christ Jesus, mankind has always wanted to buck the system established by God. The Jews did not want to follow God’s law, and the Protestants rejected what Jesus gave us. Catholics like all men struggle to live a life united to Christ, the difference is that we have the tools He gave us, and having those advantages a Catholic who lives the Faith is encouraged by the example of the Saints who trusted in Him, is surrounded by reminders both from Scripture and the lives of the Saints of what it means to daily reform ones self through the Graces given to us by Christ and become what Christ wishes, by the means He has given us.

    Just finished reviewing (again) the Brean Beacon web page, and found it to be just that. Primarily a less than credible attack, probably fabricated stories, and rather than an honest reply and debate of the topic, a misinformation campaign at those Protestants who don’t know the Catholic Church, or poorly instructed Catholics. At this juncture, and based on my own sojourn in Protestantism I’d venture to say that most Protestants I have met are exposed to less of the Bible than Catholics. Mr. Bennett is a prime example. He attacks empty ritual by attacking the praying of the Breviary, and what an evil book of spells it is. In the days that he was praying the Breviary it surrounded the person with a day filled with prayer. Seven times a day a priest would open his breviary and pray from a book that was composed of around 90% Sacred Scriptures, over the course of a week (until the reforms of the 1970’s when the cycle of the psalms was spread out over the month) all 150 Psalms where prayed. Add to that the daily epistles and Gospel in the Breviary and the Mass, as well as the old Testament readings in the Breviary, a liturgical day composed primarily of the Scriptures, and what did you get, a prayer life more repeat with the Scriptures as a living prayer and living word of God than in any Protestant Church I know of.

    Based on the dozens and dozens of books I have picked up at used book stores that where published long before Vatican II and the Charismatic Movement, (which Mr. Bennett places a great emphasis on) I’ve found among these books commentaries on and numerous encouragements to read the Bible. In any Catholic Bible published before 1970, and many since you will find encouragement to read and study the Bible at least 15-20 Minutes a day, and along with the words of encouragement a prayer to the Holy Ghost to be read (suggested not mandated) before and after reading the Holy Writ. If that was not enough, (and I’m not looking for another nasty comment or poisened pen Ronnie) Indulgences granted in order to encourage the reading of the Scriptures. This is from the Church Protestants wish to imply tried to destroy the Scriptures.

    In summary, the arguments of self important Sola Scriptura bully pulpit anti-catholic bigots not only hold no water, but are based on puffed up pride in their own interpretation of Scripture, and their own desire to be the only ones who know (through some magical gnosis) what the translation of the Scriptures that they prefer mean, over what has been believed by the Church and taught by Christ Jesus from the beginning.

    #8396

    Ron K
    Member

    LARoberts says:

    [quote:2fufztts]the Worship of Mary and the Saints is forbidden to Catholics; but you’ve been told that before, and rather than listen to truth[/quote:2fufztts]

    But the Bible tells us not to go to others in prayer have you never read
    Exodus 20:4+5: [color=red:2fufztts] “You shall not make for yourself a carved image any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God[/color:2fufztts]

    and why is He jealous?

    Exodus 34:14 – [color=red:2fufztts]for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God[/color:2fufztts]

    Deuteronomy 32:212 – [color=red:2fufztts]They have provoked Me to jealousy [b:2fufztts][u:2fufztts]by what is not God[/u:2fufztts][/b:2fufztts];They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols[/color:2fufztts]

    When in Hebrews 4:16 says -[color=red:2fufztts] Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace[/color:2fufztts]

    Now do you even have an argument on why you pray to any other then God?

    #8399

    Benedict
    Member

    Ron, nothing you posted even mentions prayer.

    You are confusing prayer with de facto worship. That does not hold up because pray has two meanings in English. One is worship and the other is petition.

    #8400

    LARobert
    Participant

    Isolating Scripture verses out of context and wrenching Catholic teachings into snippets that do not resemble the authentic teachings that have been handed down from the days of the Apostles does little to enhance your already disproven credibility. The more you try and attack Christ and His Church, the more you end up supporting Catholic thought and history if only by default.

    It is the proof text mentality that gives us the errors that you profess Ronnie, and the Jehovah’s Witness’, Mormon, SDA, Church of God, and other Protestant sects that continue day by day splitting and adding new teachings, (or sometimes as in the JW, SDA and COG old errors with new labels.) Step back for a moment and look at the entire picture rather than isolating the brushstrokes of God’s creation and the history of salvation, there will be time to look closely, once you have looked at the big picture.

    #8402

    Ron K
    Member

    Benedict

    you say:

    Ron, nothing you posted even mentions prayer.

    Why do you suppose God is Jealous? It is not any different then Paul telling us that some people idolatize their stomachs.

    #8404

    LARobert
    Participant

    [quote:1yxdtuhh]Why do you suppose God is Jealous? It is not any different then Paul telling us that some people idolatize their stomachs.[/quote:1yxdtuhh]

    What you are missing, and it is no suprise as you elevate the anti-catholic writers and their calumnies against Christ and His Church to a par with Scripture, is that God is jealous of anything or anyone who is placed on equal footing or above Him. The Blessed Virgin, angels and saints are not equal to nor are they above God in the Catholic mind. What our Lady and the Saints are are members of the Mystical Body of Christ. We hold them to be creatures of God, and not on an equal footing with God, that they now are in heaven, having been crowned with the crown of glory does not make them non-members of the Church, just members of the Church that have been perfected in Christ. Just as you may ask someone in your parish to pray for you, because they are members of the Body of Christ, so too have Christians from the earliest days of the Church asked those in heaven to pray for us, and pray with us in giving adoration to God, and in petitioning Him.

    Protestantism has a habit of tossing out the wisdom of the fathers, and handing on the bread that Apostles taught, producing stones for their followers to eat, all in the name of private interpretation. Ronald being a perfect example, he states, (unconvincingly) that everything he writes on his webpage and on his attacks in Catholic and non-catholic websites is what he himself has found to be true in the Bible. Most of his concepts are borrowed from other Protestants and are ideas that can trace themselves back between one hundered and five hundred years. Case in point the conclusions derived by him in this thread.

    #8406

    Ron K
    Member

    Not so fast there Mr Educated one.
    You state:
    [quote:2c9ia8da]What you are missing, and it is no suprise as you elevate the anti-catholic writers and their calumnies against Christ and His Church to a par with Scripture, is that God is jealous of anything or anyone who is placed on equal footing or above Him[/quote:2c9ia8da].
    No that is exactly my point….We know that God can hear and answer us because He has the qualities such as omnipotence, onmnipresence and such because He is God, so how did Mary or any of them get HIS god-like abilities to hear us and intercede for us or do anything such as that?

    [quote:2c9ia8da]
    The Blessed Virgin, angels and saints are not equal to nor are they above God in the Catholic mind. What our Lady and the Saints are are members of the Mystical Body of Christ. We hold them to be creatures of God, and not on an equal footing with God, that they now are in heaven,[/quote:2c9ia8da]
    Yes I know that but you are treating them as a one like God if you pray to them dispite what you just wrote, so explain how you KNOW that they can respond since we have many Scriptures that tell us not to go to anyone but God and also Satan’s ability to impersonate himself as even an angel of God?

    [quote:2c9ia8da] having been crowned with the crown of glory does not make them non-members of the Church, just members of the Church that have been perfected in Christ. Just as you may ask someone in your parish to pray for you, because they are members of the Body of Christ, so too have Christians from the earliest days of the Church asked those in heaven to pray for us, and pray with us in giving adoration to God, and in petitioning Him. [/quote:2c9ia8da]
    The difference is that they are not on earth any longer and that makes all the difference such as in this case! I am well aware of saints being alive with Christ, but Scriptures still state about things Jesus being the one mediator and how He expects to be treated in such a mannor! (not to meention Isaiah 8:19 – shall we seek the dead on behave of the living,shall we not go to God alone?

    AS far as the wisdom of the fathers, they also are not infallible and as I think I’m showing you – nothing equals the Scriptures – oh wise one!

    #8408

    LARobert
    Participant

    Once again, (and until you have returned to Christ and His Church, I expect distortions to come from you Ronaldo) you seem to want to tell Catholics what you say the Scriptures say, and what you want us to believe the Catholic Church teaches…. As usual you are wrong.

    Scriptures tell us that not even death can separate us from Christ. “[N]either death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38-39). If we are united with Christ, then we are also united with each other. Those who have departed before us in faith are the “cloud of witnesses” that surround us in Hebrews 12:1.

    Scripture teaches us that “the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). Who is more righteous than one united with Christ in heaven? These Christians have “been made perfect” (Heb. 12:23) and so we should expect their prayers to be more effective than any we could offer here on earth. Why not petition them to intercede for us with their prayers?

    Some argue that those in heaven cannot hear us. They are dead. This would imply a division in the Body of Christ that cannot and does not exist. Those who have died in Christ are more alive than you and I! Christ Himself was seen conversing with Elijah and Moses in Mark 9:4. Death did not present a boundary for them. Furthermore, scripture gives us examples of prayer petitions directly aimed at those in heaven. In the Psalms we find petitions to “Bless the Lord, O you His angels, you mighty ones who do His word, hearkening to the voice of His word! Bless the Lord, all His hosts, His ministers that do His will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels, praise Him, all His host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

    There is more evidence that angels (and saints) can hear us in heaven. In John’s Revelation we read of this heavenly scene. “[An] angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4). Here we see angels presenting our prayers to God. Later in that same book, John tells us of humans in heaven as well. “[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Here we see heavenly humans offering our prayers before God.

    The simple conclusion from the scriptures is that those in heaven, angels and saints, can hear our prayers. And we should ask them to pray for us. The Church Triumphant (those in heaven) remain very involved with the Church Militant (those still here on earth). Christ warns us against offending children for “in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

    Surely it is a good thing for us to ask our family and friends here on earth to pray for us. As death cannot separate those living in Christ, it is also a good thing for us to ask our departed loved ones to continue praying for us. I do not think any good Protestant would object to a man who lost his mother kneeling down before her grave and saying, “Mom, I’m sure having a rough time right now. Please pray for me.” This man has faith that his mother is in heaven and can hear him and aid him with her prayers.

    #8410

    Ron K
    Member

    Again Mr. LARoberts

    why always the cheap shots such as this?
    [quote:169vltlc]
    Once again, (and until you have returned to Christ and His Church, [b:169vltlc][u:169vltlc]I expect distortions to come from you Ronaldo)[/u:169vltlc][/b:169vltlc] you seem to want to tell Catholics what you say the Scriptures say, and what you want us to believe the Catholic Church teaches…. As usual you are wrong. [/quote:169vltlc]
    Now to your post –

    [quote:169vltlc]Scriptures tell us that not even death can separate us from Christ. “[N]either death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38-39).[/quote:169vltlc]
    The “us” are saved people that Paul is talking about – i.e. those that trust in Him alone by His shed blood alone!

    [quote:169vltlc]If we are united with Christ, then we are also united with each other. [/quote:169vltlc]
    Yet you claim that one cannot know if they are united (saved) in this life, that would be a sin of presumtion I think your church say. As I stated above that word IF is a might big word considering you can’t know!

    [quote:169vltlc]Those who have departed before us in faith are the “cloud of witnesses” that surround us in Hebrews 12:1. [/quote:169vltlc]
    Those mentioned we know did it the right way and were examples for us, nothing said about them hearing and answering anyone’s prayers

    [quote:169vltlc]
    Scripture teaches us that “the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). Who is more righteous than one united with Christ in heaven? These Christians have “been made perfect” (Heb. 12:23)[/quote:169vltlc]
    So what about that makes you assume they can hear everyone down here or that they have God’s power to answer us? Are you like the mormons that think when we die we become gods?

    [quote:169vltlc] and so we should expect their prayers to be more effective than any we could offer here on earth. Why not petition them to intercede for us with their prayers? [/quote:169vltlc]
    Because our ways are not God’s ways and I’ve given you many of the Scriptures that does not allow it – that is why not!

    [quote:169vltlc]Some argue that those in heaven cannot hear us. They are dead. This would imply a division in the Body of Christ that cannot and does not exist.[/quote:169vltlc]
    Why? How? It only shows that God is God and no one else deserves to be close to imitate being a god, it does nothing to separate us except for them being in a different dimension in which they have been separated from us by death

    [quote:169vltlc]Those who have died in Christ are more alive than you and I! Christ Himself was seen conversing with Elijah and Moses in Mark 9:4. Death did not present a boundary for them.[/quote:169vltlc]
    And they never communicated with the others up there either- so what is that proving?

    [quote:169vltlc] Furthermore, scripture gives us examples of prayer petitions directly aimed at those in heaven. In the Psalms we find petitions to “Bless the Lord, O you His angels, you mighty ones who do His word, hearkening to the voice of His word! Bless the Lord, all His hosts, His ministers that do His will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels, praise Him, all His host!” (Ps. 148:1-2). [/quote:169vltlc]
    so one praises the God for His wonderful work and how awesome it is – nothing there about praying to them

    [quote:169vltlc]There is more evidence that angels (and saints) can hear us in heaven. In John’s Revelation we read of this heavenly scene. “[An] angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4). Here we see angels presenting our prayers to God. Later in that same book, John tells us of humans in heaven as well. “[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:. Here we see heavenly humans offering our prayers before God. [/quote:169vltlc]
    A simple picture of the praising of God going on in Heaven – nothing about them hearing and petitoning for us there in either one of those examples

    [quote:169vltlc]The simple conclusion from the scriptures is that those in heaven, angels and saints, can hear our prayers. And we should ask them to pray for us. [/quote:169vltlc]
    No sir that is your unbiblical conclusion and does not prove any such thing except that is your wish for it to say!

    [quote:169vltlc]The Church Triumphant (those in heaven) remain very involved with the Church Militant (those still here on earth). Christ warns us against offending children for “in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10). [/quote:169vltlc]
    Yes angels have been know to be used by God but even those are only fellow servants – Rev. 19:10 and 22:9

    [quote:169vltlc]Surely it is a good thing for us to ask our family and friends here on earth to pray for us.[/quote:169vltlc]
    I agree with that 100%

    [quote:169vltlc] As death cannot separate those living in Christ, it is also a good thing for us to ask our departed loved ones to continue praying for us.[/quote:169vltlc]
    But death doea change a lot of things including the rules Mr. LARoberts

    [quote:169vltlc]
    I do not think any good Protestant would object to a man who lost his mother kneeling down before her grave and saying, “Mom, I’m sure having a rough time right now. Please pray for me.” This man has faith that his mother is in heaven and can hear him and aid him with her prayers.[/quote:169vltlc]
    MAybe you could do that but those that love God obey Him – and notice that His faith might appear noble but it isn’t in God’s way – it’s in your way – big difference!
    _________________

    #8426

    Benedict
    Member

    Refrain from name-calling, LARobert.

    [quote:1utbj5j4]So what about that makes you assume … they have God’s power to answer us?[/quote:1utbj5j4]Ron, just as with purgatory, I am going to once again try to straighten your twisted understanding of Catholicism.

    The saints do not answer our prayers as though they were God. They pray for us.

    #8428

    Ron K
    Member

    Thank you Benedict for you civil response. Anyway you claim:
    [quote:2sfi1ikk]
    Ron, just as with purgatory, I am going to once again try to straighten your twisted understanding of Catholicism.

    The saints do not answer our prayers as though they were God. They pray for us.[/quote:2sfi1ikk]

    What you would like it to do or claim it to do is not what Scripture actually tells us. Have you read any of the postings that I placed about purgatory or praying to the dead?

    PS – again thank you for your time and responding method

    #8430

    weather
    Member

    Why can’t non-catholics or even Ron who was a Catholic for 40 years get it through there thick skulls that[color=black:3qtcf5s8] we don’t worship statues or Mary[/color:3qtcf5s8](We adore her)Doesnt ever one adore there mother?Why shouldn’t we adore Jesus’s mother.And just last week I had my 4 foot statue of Mary sand blasted and repainted after 20 years in my backyard(she looks beautilful).Also speaking of graven images if what Ron is saying,I bet he’s got pics of himself and some family members.according to him that should be a no-no cause now you practice[b:3qtcf5s8] vanity.[/b:3qtcf5s8]

    Ron please read http://www.protomartyr.org/image.html

    #8431

    Ron K
    Member

    Mr. Weathers said:
    [quote:15iuzoyu]Why can’t non-catholics or even Ron who was a Catholic for 40 years get it through there thick skulls that we don’t worship statues or Mary(We adore her)Doesnt ever one adore there mother?Why shouldn’t we adore Jesus’s mother.And just last week I had my 4 foot statue of Mary sand blasted and repainted after 20 years in my backyard(she looks beautilful).Also speaking of graven images if what Ron is saying,I bet he’s got pics of himself and some family members.according to him that should be a no-no cause now you practice vanity. [/quote:15iuzoyu]

    And why can’t you understand what Scriptures say about praying to anyone other then God/Jesus?
    Look, for example, at my posting back three posts ago…. it is a simple case of “If it smells like a rose, feels like a rose, then it must be a rose.”
    Why is it that you have so much trouble understanding Scripture?

    Also I do not worship my mother, nor do I pray to her asking “for her to be there when I die” or anything else but only God.

    #8432

    weather
    Member

    RON SAID “And why can’t you understand what Scriptures say about praying to anyone other then God/Jesus?”

    [color=darkred:3kp0m1py]THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT YOU CANT GET INTO YOUR BRAIN(I DONT KNOW WHY),WE ONLY PRAY TO JESUS,SOMETIMES WE ASK THE SAINTS OR MARY TO INTERCEDE FOR US(WHAT IS WRONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE TO HELP PRAY FOR US??),IF YOU OR I ARE VERY SICK DON’T YOU THINK YOUR FAMILY OR FRIENDS ARE PRAYING FOR YOU.IF YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT THEN I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO SAY AND FEEL VERY SORRY FOR YOU.[/color:3kp0m1py]

    #8433

    LARobert
    Participant

    [quote:1qnhg55s](We adore her)Doesnt ever one adore there mother?[/quote:1qnhg55s]

    Not quite. The first thing that a Catholic is taught abouth the worship of God and the veneration of the Saints is that he must define all the terms that he uses. That process of defining one term after the other is done before any proofs are put forth. Since questions concerning Catholic worship and veneration surface occasionally, and since even catechisms generally do not deal with the problem this is Catholic theology concerning Catholic Honor.

    The highest honor that is possible is given to God alone, and that is called in Latin “latria.” The seconds highest honor that is given is “hyperdulia,” and that is given to the Blessed Virgin alone. The third type of honor is “dulia,” and that is given to all the angels and saints in heaven. After that there are various grades of honor. We are told to honor our parents. We are to honor the King (and rulers in general). We must honor our superiors. The wife must honor her husband.

    The ordinary English speaking person generally does not use the terms latria, hyperdulia and dulia. He uses the words adoration for latria, veneration for hyperdulia and veneration for dulia. He may use super-veneration for hyperdulia.

    The honor given to God through latria or adoration is the highest honor that can be given. It recognizes God as being the Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier. God is infinite. He is all good in Himself. Obviously He is our just judge. None of that honor can be given to a creature, and if it is done it is idolatry.

    Hyperdulia or super veneration is given to only one created being, and that is the Blessed Virgin Mary. It shows that Mary, the Mother of God, is so highly blessed and endowed by God that she stands alone in her class. She is above all the angels and all the Saints.

    Dulia or veneration goes to all the good angels and to all the Saints. No matter how good a person is he will not receive public liturgical veneration in the Catholic Church until he is declared venerable and finally a Saint by the Church.

    There is also the difference between absolute and relative honor. When honor is give directly to the person involved, the honor is called absolute. When it is directed to an image of the person it is called relative honor.

    If one pins a flower on his mother on Mothers’ Day he gives her absolute honor, and if he puts flowers by her picture he gives her relative honor. The honor given with relative honor does not stop in the manufactured image. It really glances on to the one who is absent.

    A few examples in religion are, we give our honor to Jesus before a Christmas crib we give relative adoration to the Infant Jesus. We give relative veneration when we pray in front of an image of the Blessed Virgin. It is forbidden to believe that we can or should worship the image of the Creator, or venerate the image of our Lady, that would be idolotry. It would be idolotry to say that our Lady answers prayers by her own power, she interceeds for us, just as when a member of our family or congregation interceeds for us before the Throne of God.

    #8434

    Ron K
    Member

    I’ll try this once again:

    The Bible tells us not to go to others in prayer have you never read
    Exodus 20:4+5: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God

    and why is He jealous?

    Exodus 34:14 – for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God

    1 Timothy 2:5 – [quote:11o1wkq6]For there is one God and [color=red:11o1wkq6][b:11o1wkq6]one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,[/b:11o1wkq6][/color:11o1wkq6][/quote:11o1wkq6]
    Deuteronomy 32:21 – They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God;They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols

    When in Hebrews 4:16 says – Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace.

    God wants us to go to Him So why Not? This is not my opinion, it is what Scriptures tell us, and to say that Mary is intercedeing to Jesus is still between you and God.

    #8436

    weather
    Member

    RON said [color=red:340dl0gi]”And why can’t you understand what Scriptures say about praying to anyone other then God/Jesus?”[/color:340dl0gi]

    [color=blue:340dl0gi]Ron your mind was not focused on my last post,read it again more carefully[/color:340dl0gi]

    #8437

    Ron K
    Member

    Mr. Weathers, you said 4 things: (all about praying to dead people)

    [quote:uzsa6250]SOMETIMES WE ASK THE SAINTS OR MARY TO INTERCEDE FOR US[/quote:uzsa6250]
    If you pray to them – It is wrong! If they are amongst the living, breathing humans (This dimension not Heaven) then there is nothing wrong with it.

    [quote:uzsa6250]WHAT IS WRONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE TO HELP PRAY FOR US?[/quote:uzsa6250]
    same answer for this as the last

    [quote:uzsa6250]IF YOU OR I ARE VERY SICK DON’T YOU THINK YOUR FAMILY OR FRIENDS ARE PRAYING FOR YOU[/quote:uzsa6250]
    Not if they are dead, no I don’t.

    [quote:uzsa6250]IF YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT THEN I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO SAY AND FEEL VERY SORRY FOR YOU.[/quote:uzsa6250]
    You don’t have to be sorry for me, but let me give you (another) verse to think about – Provebs 14:12 – [color=red:uzsa6250]There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death[/color:uzsa6250]

    Think about what you are doing and if you really want to do that, okay?

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