“Full of grace” for us all

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  • #1777

    Victor
    Member

    [color=navy:rsh5qj4z]Ok, I was talking to someone about how we as Catholics believe that Mary was saved before the fact. That she was “full of grace” since conception. A question arose as to why we weren’t all born “full of grace” if God really wishes for all of us to be saved.

    I, quite honestly didn’t know what to say to them.

    Thoughts? [/color:rsh5qj4z]

    [color=green:rsh5qj4z][b:rsh5qj4z]Catechism of the Catholic Church 490-91[/b:rsh5qj4z]

    To become the mother of the Savior, Mary “was enriched by God with the gifts appropriate to such a role.” The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace.” In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

    Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

    The most blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin[/color:rsh5qj4z]

    [color=navy:rsh5qj4z]The only thing that popped to mind was that Mary was “full of grace” mainly for her role, not necessarily for salvation; although that is what follows with it.

    That make sense?[/color:rsh5qj4z]

    #8732

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Yes, my understanding is that Mary was preserved by God so that she could carry the savior in her womb.

    #8749

    LARobert
    Participant

    God and His graces are not limited like ourselves to time and space. The merits of our Lord on the Cross are the real reason that the oxen and doves offered to God at the Temple of Jerusalem where acceptable. The offerings of the Old Testament where done based on the promise of Christ. The suffering of our Lord on the Cross was applied to those holy men and women of the Old Testament too.

    So too with our Lady. An apocryphal tale of one of the Early Church Fathers, (and therefore not required belief) states that before the creation of the world, God knowing that man would fall into sin and need a savior looked out on all the souls that would ever come into exsistance. Most every soul was paying attention to themselves, but one soul seemed to be missing. On closer inspection God saw that Mary was bowed down in complete and total submission to His will. It was there that God decided that she would be the mother of the Savior, and that creation would be worthwhile because of our Lady’s submission to God’s will.

    We must to be Catholic believe that God removed from the Blessed Mother even the stain of original sin from the very moment of her conception as a singular grace based on the anticipation of our Lord’s Passion and death on the Cross. Our Lady was conceived in the normal manner by the marriage act between SS. Anne and Joachim. (There are a couple of “seers” who deny this. once again, showing the dangers of placing apparitions and seers over the teaching authority of the Church)

    #8754

    Victor
    Member
    "LARobert":ps4zyh8x wrote:
    God and His graces are not limited like ourselves to time and space. The merits of our Lord on the Cross are the real reason that the oxen and doves offered to God at the Temple of Jerusalem where acceptable. The offerings of the Old Testament where done based on the promise of Christ. The suffering of our Lord on the Cross was applied to those holy men and women of the Old Testament too.

    So too with our Lady. An apocryphal tale of one of the Early Church Fathers, (and therefore not required belief) states that before the creation of the world, God knowing that man would fall into sin and need a savior looked out on all the souls that would ever come into exsistance. Most every soul was paying attention to themselves, but one soul seemed to be missing. On closer inspection God saw that Mary was bowed down in complete and total submission to His will. It was there that God decided that she would be the mother of the Savior, and that creation would be worthwhile because of our Lady’s submission to God’s will.

    We must to be Catholic believe that God removed from the Blessed Mother even the stain of original sin from the very moment of her conception as a singular grace based on the anticipation of our Lord’s Passion and death on the Cross. Our Lady was conceived in the normal manner by the marriage act between SS. Anne and Joachim. (There are a couple of “seers” who deny this. once again, showing the dangers of placing apparitions and seers over the teaching authority of the Church)[/quote:ps4zyh8x]
    [color=navy:ps4zyh8x]The question wasn’t why our Lord chose her, but rather why only her?[/color:ps4zyh8x]

    #8756

    LARobert
    Participant

    Sorry, mis-read it. I would imagine that if we where all born “Full of Grace” that we would then lack free will.

    Secondly if Adam and Eve did not receive the punishment due for their transgression, (and us as decendants of our first parents) that would be a miscarriage of justice. God is merciful, but mercy does not rule out justice. God does freely offer graces that we are free to accept or reject, however He does not force His graces on us. To deny this would be to accept the false premise of Absolute Predestination which John Calvin based his heresy on.

    #8757

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster
    "LARobert":efkh8qu0 wrote:
    Sorry, mis-read it. I would imagine that if we where all born “Full of Grace” that we would then lack free will.[/quote:efkh8qu0]
    So do you mean to say that Mary lacked free will?
    #8758

    LARobert
    Participant

    No, if she had lacked free will, her Fiat would have been meaningless. She holds a unique place among humankind. As is the case with all of us, she being a human needed to the redemtive action of our Lord on the Cross, the difference in her case is that our Lord granted that redemtive grace at her conception, knowing that she would be His servant totally unified with His will.

    So now that I have made an error today, I can go to sleep with confidence that the Angels will not come and take me up to heaven for being perfect. I just love it when I err and can stay here an extra day….:lol:

    #8759

    Victor
    Member

    [color=navy:10mcqb0s]Not trying to be difficult here Robert and perhaps it’s just me but I can’t see where you answered my question. I understand why God did it and how she has a unique role in humanity but let me rephrase the question.

    Why did our Lord grant redemptive grace at her conception? Why didn’t you or I receive this singular grace? Do we not have roles in this world? Does he not want us to be saved?

    The last one of course is yes He does want us to be saved but I’ll stop there to see what you say. [/color:10mcqb0s]

    #8761

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster
    "Victor":3395qf6n wrote:
    [color=navy:3395qf6n]Why did our Lord grant redemptive grace at her conception? Why didn’t you or I receive this singular grace?[/color:3395qf6n][/quote:3395qf6n]
    Because we’re men and cannot bear children. <img src=” title=”Razz” />

    I just wanted to chime in with that kind of response. <img src=” title=”Smile” />

    #8763

    LARobert
    Participant

    [b:1wj9s16y]Why didn’t you or I receive this singular grace? Do we not have roles in this world? Does he not want us to be saved?[/b:1wj9s16y]

    I was privy to an interview by a bishop who had been tortured and in prison for defending the Faith once. He was asked, “Do you think you would have been happier to have lived in the century before Communism where the Church and clergy where treated with respect rather than scorn?” His reply was, “No, God in His wisdom chose from all eternity for me to share His suffering, and show His grace to people who needed the encouragement.” So now that I think I better understand your question, I’ll try to give my answer……

    Our Lady as I already mentioned every moment of her existance bowed down to the will of God. She did so of her own free will.

    God knowing that none of us had the same faith and fortitude did not choose us. While we do like our Lady posess free will, He also knew our weaknesses and the graces needed for us to cooperate with His will. Even if only one person would accept His will, He would have been willing to become incarnate, die, and send His graces to all of us so that one person could spend eternity with him. As it is a very rare gift to be able to see the condition of someone’s soul, (St. John Marie Vianney and St. Padre Pio are two examples that come to mind) we are also not privy to what God will consider when it comes to judging our neighbor, (A little off topic I know).

    Boiling it down, God knows us and our strengths and weaknesses. Knowing that (as far as we know) our Lady is the only human in history that would be obedient every moment of her life, He used that to choose her to ensure His plan for our salvation. Knowing that we would not be, he did not choose us for that singular grace.

    I started to type the following in an earlier answer, but not understanding your question did not. I had a professor in College, a Dominican priest who was a well respected theologian. He one day diverged off topic and began discussing Speculative Theology. An area where theologians develop theories and study what the early Fathers wrote about different subjects that have not been formally defined by the Magesterium. He told us about a theory held by some theologians that our Lady could have been only one of thousands of women considered for the special graces to become the mother of our Lord. She was simply the first and only to accept the role. They further speculated that two other things occured, those who rejected the offer did not retain a memory of the offer and that if the theory is true it is one of many things that God has chosen not to reveal to us in this lifetime.

    The above theory does not deny our Lady’s special place in history. It does not proport to be dogma, and does not reject the defining dogma of the Immaculate Conception. It simply is one of the (little known) theories that theologians have batted about as to how the plan of salvation could have been implimented.

    #8783

    Carmelite
    Member
    "Victor":21dadpga wrote:
    [color=navy:21dadpga]Why did our Lord grant redemptive grace at her conception? Why didn’t you or I receive this singular grace? Do we not have roles in this world? Does he not want us to be saved?
    . [/color:21dadpga][/quote:21dadpga]
    If God filled us all with grace then where is His Justice? What would be the price paid for Adam’s Original Sin if we all were born full of grace? Why would Jesus have died if we all can be filled with grace as if Adam never sinned?
    The Church teaches that the Blessed Mother had this as a singular grace because she was to bear Jesus. Mary’s freedom from Original Sin was an unmerited gift of God and an exception form the law which was vouchsafed to her only.
    The Blessed Mother was born without Original Sin because God applied the merits of Christ to her. Because God is outside of time, He can apply the merits of Christ to Mary even if she came before His Birth. So even the Blessed Mother was redeemed by Christ:

    [i:21dadpga]491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more
    aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed
    from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the
    Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

    The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment
    of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of
    almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ,
    Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain
    of original sin.

    492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which
    Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes
    wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion,
    by reason of the merits of her Son.” [/i:21dadpga]
    Catechism of the Catholic Church

    [i:21dadpga]53. …….. Redeemed by reason of the merits of her Son and united to Him by a close and indissoluble tie,she is endowed with the high office and dignity of being the Mother of the Son of God, by which account she is also the beloved daughter of the Father and the temple of the Holy Spirit. Because of this gift of sublime grace she far surpasses all creatures, both in heaven and on earth. [/i:21dadpga]
    LUMEN GENTIUM

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