Confess sins to a Priest?

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This topic contains 39 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Ron K 8 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #1334

    weather
    Member

    <img src=:” title=”Question” /> The age old answer from Lutherans is why do Catholics confess there sins to another human,they always say if one confesses or pray to God one sins will be foregiven.Any insight on this thinking?

    #6694

    Bernardine
    Member

    Here is a link to an explaination by John S. Martignoni from his website.

    http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/2m … .php?id=12

    #6695

    weather
    Member

    Thanks Bernadine,now I know how to answer my Lutheran friends

    #6793

    Ron K
    Member

    Excuse me, but there are a few errors in this answer- watch as I point them out –

    Apologetics 101-10

    Q: Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?

    A. Well, the quick answer is because that’s the way God wants us to do it. In James 5:16, God, through Sacred Scripture, commands us to “confess our sins to one another.” Notice, Scripture does not say confess your sins straight to God and only to God…it says confess your sins to one another.
    [color=darkred:hdlzc1or]The point was that we should be humble enough to recognize our faults and to turn away from them [/color:hdlzc1or]

    In Matthew, chapter 9, verse 6, Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins. And then Scripture proceeds to tell us, in verse 8, that this authority was given to “men”…plural.
    [color=darkred:hdlzc1or]Not rigiht – the people just had never seen a man or any men have this ability before, But Jesus is God and He alone can do this.[/color:hdlzc1or]

    In John 20, verses 21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? “Jesus said to them, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.'” How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him…so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn’t get it, verses 22-23 say this, “And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'”[color=darkred:hdlzc1or]
    Only God can forgive sins not men. They can, however, as born again Christians that know the saving gospel to share with those that they encounte r, based upon that individuals beliefs, inform them wether they are saved or not, i.e. their sins would be forgiven or not. He did not give “the Power” to forgive to men aseven the Pharisees knew (Luke 5:21) [/color:hdlzc1or]

    Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn’t expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?
    [color=darkred:hdlzc1or]God never did that “for He is God, and there is no other.” Your question is based upon a mis-interpretation of John 20:23 [/color:hdlzc1or]

    The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest…it is God’s power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest.
    [color=darkred:hdlzc1or]A few more misconceptions here – 1 He did not give the authority to forgive sins too a human for the reasons above and if it was true then He’d be submitting to men – not having men answer to Him and 2- all True believers are Biblically priests not just those in your church whichare not Biblical – see Hebrews 7:23-27[/color:hdlzc1or][color=blue:hdlzc1or]
    23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
    26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who isholy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself[/color:hdlzc1or]

    #6806

    Bernardine
    Member

    lol :rolleyes:

    #6807

    Ron K
    Member

    I’m glad for you, you might check out my website for more if you get serious about your Salvation;

    #6808

    Benedict
    Member

    Ron, refrain from insulting other posters.

    #6853

    Ron K
    Member

    Benedict said:

    [quote:el5kpigx]Ron, refrain from insulting other posters.[/quote:el5kpigx]

    What’s insulting about –

    [quote:el5kpigx]I’m glad for you, you might check out my website for more if you get serious about your Salvation;
    [/quote:el5kpigx]

    I’m not insulting you, I’m simply tell you that you are wrong about Catholicism and why ….. if it bothers you, then check out what I’m saying and then maybe you’ll understand.

    #6856

    Ron, nothing of substance was said in your post. The ONLY thing you ever said was “no you are interpreting it wrong”.

    Now beyond the fact that it is very obvious and only someone wiht an extremely closed mind could look at it and NOT see Jesus giving the Apostles the power to forgive sins, is the fact that even if it wasn’t so obvious–which it is–you have no authority for such an interpretation. You are privately interpreting the Bible–which is condemned in the Bible–while we are relying upon the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth.

    #6859

    Ron K
    Member

    Uncertaindrummer says:

    [quote:4zxskmod]Ron, nothing of substance was said in your post. The ONLY thing you ever said was “no you are interpreting it wrong”.

    Now beyond the fact that it is very obvious and only someone wiht an extremely closed mind could look at it and NOT see Jesus giving the Apostles the power to forgive sins, is the fact that even if it wasn’t so obvious–which it is–you have no authority for such an interpretation. You are privately interpreting the Bible–which is condemned in the Bible–while we are relying upon the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth.
    _________________[/quote:4zxskmod]

    Oh you must be referring to John 20:23? I will admit that Satan doesn’t miss anything when it comes to his deceptions, including how they “twist” that verse. Even the Pharisees knew that only God can forgive sins (see Luke 5:21) Here Jesu tells his followers that when they meet someone, they (God’s people who know and believe) they can share with that individual whether they’re saved or not based upon what that person’s beliefs are … do they match the Biblical (and only one way) to have their sins washed away or are they believing in something else…. sort of what I am trying to point out to you. God told His followers to go and preach the Gospel, making disciples around the world – [b:4zxskmod]THAT[/b:4zxskmod] is my authority and elsewhere we are told to test everything warning us of deceptions – which is better then being brain dead, believing everything that your Church not THE Church, tells you. Btw – I have a two part article on that “pillar of truth” idea on my website that I cannot give to you here because Jon won’t allow it anymore… check these other discussions – its out there if you want it.

    #6862

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:1ywzbl4w]Oh you must be referring to John 20:23? […] Here Jesu tells his followers that when they meet someone, they (God’s people who know and believe) they can share with that individual whether they’re saved or not based upon what that person’s beliefs are … do they match the Biblical (and only one way) to have their sins washed away or are they believing in something else….[/quote:1ywzbl4w]
    Jesus is appearing to the apostles to post-Resurrection. These aren’t just any old followers of his, but rather the ones he hand-picked to tend the flock.

    John 20:22 is when Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit unto them. We see in the OT (Gen 2:7) that when God breathes the Holy Spirit upon someone that he is giving them life. Whatever comes next is bound to be important because this act of breathing the Spirit is not some mundane action.

    John 20:23 he tells them “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” Clearly Jesus is transferring or conveying some sort of power and authority on these men just as he does in Matthew 18:18.

    In this section of John takes place a commissioning of the apostles. He’s not just telling them that whatever has happened they have the power to agree to it. [b:1ywzbl4w]He’s giving them life and authority (that comes directly from God, Jesus, himself) to forgive or retain sins![/b:1ywzbl4w]

    #6865

    “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

    Ron, you are looking at this verse and denying what any honest person would ever say about it. You see this and somehow come up with this idea that God was NOT giving them the power to forgive sins. That is nonsense.

    You are twisting things to fit your pre existing notions–and it is not working. Why is it that every time we run into a Bible verse you have to explain it away? How come you have to explain away John 6, the entirety of James, Jesus’ exhortations to listen to the Apostles as if Himself, His pronouncement of Peter as the rock, the obvious Church hierarchy in Acts 15, etc. etc. etc…

    Why? How come there are never any problematic verses for anyone’s beliefs but YOURS? Why don’t you start conforming your beliefs, instead of trying to interpret the Bible in such a way that you can maintain what you want to maintain.

    The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth; the Bible never even claims to be sufficient for our salvation, much less provide us with a list of its books; for that matter many books never even claim to be inspired, and yet you act as if you have some authority to bellow and shout from on high?

    Where is your authority, Ron? And why do twenty thousand protestant denominations disagree with you, while claiming to read the “plain wording of Scripture” just as you do?

    You can try to twist such obvious verses as this until your eyes bulge out of their sockets, but in the end, you don’t even know why you attempt to interpret the Bible.

    Why should I listen to you, Ron?

    #6873

    Ron K
    Member

    Uncertaindrummer says:

    [color=blue:3gtrrz3q]”Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

    Ron, you are looking at this verse and denying what any honest person would ever say about it. You see this and somehow come up with this idea that God was NOT giving them the power to forgive sins. That is nonsense.
    What is nonsense about using Scriptures to interpret Scriptures? Luke 5:21 says that fact that only God can forgive sins. Why would God allow to sinful men such “power” so that He Himself wiould have to follow Man’s ways – You better think again,my friend. [/color:3gtrrz3q]

    [color=blue:3gtrrz3q]You are twisting things to fit your pre existing notions–and it is not working. Why is it that every time we run into a Bible verse you have to explain it away? How come you have to explain away John 6, the entirety of James, Jesus’ exhortations to listen to the Apostles as if Himself, His pronouncement of Peter as the rock, the obvious Church hierarchy in Acts 15, etc. etc. etc… [/color:3gtrrz3q]
    Simply to help you understand how erronious your church teaches you – that if somebody wouldn’t tell you, you’d never figure it out by yourself – or as Romans 10:14+15 puts it – [color=red:3gtrrz3q]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [/color:3gtrrz3q]

    [color=blue:3gtrrz3q]Why? How come there are never any problematic verses for anyone’s beliefs but YOURS? Why don’t you start conforming your beliefs, instead of trying to interpret the Bible in such a way that you can maintain what you want to maintain. [/color:3gtrrz3q]
    Why” because there is a need for you to hear how you’ve been and are being sold a false Gospel that saves no one. You don’t have to believe me but look at what I’m saying and compare what I say to the Word of God itself – read my website I explain every detail complete and simple enough that anyone that really wants to see and spend eternity in Heaven
    can understand

    [color=blue:3gtrrz3q]The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth; the Bible never even claims to be sufficient for our salvation, much less provide us with a list of its books; for that matter many books never even claim to be inspired, and yet you act as if you have some authority to bellow and shout from on high? [/color:3gtrrz3q]
    The Church is the pillar and foundation if they follow God’s instructions but it isn’t some “denomination” that claims religious superiority and does so many of the things that goes against God’s Word such as yours or JW’s, Mormans, Moslems etc…. and the church that is started by Christ is all of the saved individuals put together – so how does anyone figure that Catholicism is that Church when many “catholics” don’t even care how they believe or what they believe, especially with all of your Traditions that DOES go against Scriptures.

    [color=blue:3gtrrz3q]Where is your authority, Ron? And why do twenty thousand protestant denominations disagree with you, while claiming to read the “plain wording of Scripture” just as you do? [/color:3gtrrz3q]
    Satan divides marriages too – what is your point? You are saying nothing that I haven’t heard from Scriptures – Matthew 7:13+14 tells us the same thing to the max! Jesus told His desciples to go and preach, making others into believers in Matthew 28:20 – that is my authority and that has never changed yet.

    [color=blue:3gtrrz3q]You can try to twist such obvious verses as this until your eyes bulge out of their sockets, but in the end, you don’t even know why you attempt to interpret the Bible.

    Why should I listen to you, Ron?[/color:3gtrrz3q]
    So where or what do you claim that I twist or “make my own interpretations?” And if I’m telling you the truth, then why not check it out – or ask more questions if you wish – that wouldn’t bother me in the least as I am not the decieved one here good buddy!

    #6878

    [quote:83ji2cvm]Uncertaindrummer says:

    [color=blue:83ji2cvm]
    What is nonsense about using Scriptures to interpret Scriptures? Luke 5:21 says that fact that only God can forgive sins. Why would God allow to sinful men such “power” so that He Himself wiould have to follow Man’s ways – You better think again,my friend. [/color:83ji2cvm][/quote:83ji2cvm]

    First of all, using Scripture to interpret Scripture is self defeating. It doesn’t work. It is yet another in a long line of your logical fallacies. But for the moment, I will disregard that.

    GOD FORGIVES SINS. There is no doubt about that. ONLY God can forgive sins. And ONLY God can perform miracles. And yet, God works many miracles through His Apostles. In the same way, He gave them the power to forgive sins. He SAYS it, RIGHT THERE, and you have no alternative explanation. Your drivel about “no, He just meant that the Apostles could *inform* people if their sins are forgiven” is simply WRONG. He doesn’t say that. He says, whoever’s sins they forgive, are forgiven. Period.

    [quote:83ji2cvm]Why” because there is a need for you to hear how you’ve been and are being sold a false Gospel that saves no one.[/quote:83ji2cvm]

    Sold? Is that so. If it is so false, why are all the crazy mangled bending into pretzel interpretations YOUR ideas, where as I just look at Scripture and believe it?

    [quote:83ji2cvm]You don’t have to believe me but look at what I’m saying and compare what I say to the Word of God itself – read my website I explain every detail complete and simple enough that anyone that really wants to see and spend eternity in Heaven
    can understand[/quote:83ji2cvm]

    I have no desire to look at your website. Far better apologists than you have attempted to bring down Catholicism and they all fail, because the Gates of Hell will not prevail agaisnt God’s Church.

    [quote:83ji2cvm]The Church is the pillar and foundation if they follow God’s instructions[/quote:83ji2cvm]

    Ah, Ron. You are starting to really crack me up. That isn’t what the Bible says. It simply says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. YOU added this other stuff onto the end. YOU are making void the word of God by your man made traditions.

    [quote:83ji2cvm]but it isn’t some “denomination” that claims religious superiority and does so many of the things that goes against God’s Word such as yours or JW’s, Mormans, Moslems etc…. [/quote:83ji2cvm]

    And yet… I’m listening to the bile and you aren’t? So how does my Church go agaisnt the bible which you jsut tried to explain away by adding your own idea onto the end of a very clear, poignant Biblical verse?

    [quote:83ji2cvm]and the church that is started by Christ is all of the saved individuals put together – [/quote:83ji2cvm]

    Says who? The Church is a very real institution, as evidenced by everything in the Bible.

    [quote:83ji2cvm]so how does anyone figure that Catholicism is that Church when many “catholics” don’t even care how they believe or what they believe, especially with all of your Traditions that DOES go against Scriptures.[/quote:83ji2cvm]

    My Church WROTE the Scriptures. It doesn’t go against them.

    [quote:83ji2cvm]
    Satan divides marriages too – what is your point? [/quote:83ji2cvm]

    Yes, you are right, and when Satan divides a marriage, it ruins the marriage. Hence, when your Church is splintered, it just goes to show how fake it was. But it doesn’t endanger the *institution* of marriage when one couple fails, and in the same way Satan cannot get his hands on the real *institution*, the Catholic Church. I find your analogy very fitting.

    [quote:83ji2cvm]You are saying nothing that I haven’t heard from Scriptures – Matthew 7:13+14 tells us the same thing to the max! Jesus told His desciples to go and preach, making others into believers in Matthew 28:20 – that is my authority and that has never changed yet. [/quote:83ji2cvm]

    Sure, but His disciples recieved their authority from Him. Did He come to you in a vision and tell you that YOUR way is correct? (And it is YOUR way.)

    #6880

    Ron K
    Member

    Uncertaindrummer says to my replies:

    [quote:3r2gzjip]What is nonsense about using Scriptures to interpret Scriptures? Luke 5:21 says that fact that only God can forgive sins. Why would God allow to sinful men such “power” so that He Himself wiould have to follow Man’s ways – You better think again,my friend.

    First of all, using Scripture to interpret Scripture is self defeating. It doesn’t work. It is yet another in a long line of your logical fallacies. But for the moment, I will disregard that. [/quote:3r2gzjip]
    Where do you get that goofy notion? Don’t tell me, let me guess your church -right?

    [quote:3r2gzjip]GOD FORGIVES SINS. There is no doubt about that. ONLY God can forgive sins. And ONLY God can perform miracles. And yet, God works many miracles through His Apostles. In the same way, He gave them the power to forgive sins. He SAYS it, RIGHT THERE, and you have no alternative explanation. Your drivel about “no, He just meant that the Apostles could *inform* people if their sins are forgiven” is simply WRONG. He doesn’t say that. He says, whoever’s sins they forgive, are forgiven. Period.
    [/quote:3r2gzjip]
    Here’s the double talk – first you admit that only God can forgve sins but then you add that He gave the power to His apostles (which then gives it through apostlic succession no doubt to priests) So here is a perfect case of which is it God alone or God + men? It cannot be both because then it wouldn’t be God alone.

    [quote:3r2gzjip]
    Why” because there is a need for you to hear how you’ve been and are being sold a false Gospel that saves no one.

    Sold? Is that so. If it is so false, why are all the crazy mangled bending into pretzel interpretations YOUR ideas, where as I just look at Scripture and believe it? [/quote:3r2gzjip]
    Oh is that so? So tell me where the Bible says to PRAY to Mary +saints, purgatory, the meriting graces through sacraments, These are just for starters for I guarantee that the twisting is done on YOUR part!

    [quote:3r2gzjip]
    You don’t have to believe me but look at what I’m saying and compare what I say to the Word of God itself – read my website I explain every detail complete and simple enough that anyone that really wants to see and spend eternity in Heaven
    can understand

    I have no desire to look at your website. Far better apologists than you have attempted to bring down Catholicism and they all fail, because the Gates of Hell will not prevail agaisnt God’s Church. [/quote:3r2gzjip]

    That is your unfortunate free will choice and for your info God hasn’t let His Church fail yet but that has nothing to do with Catholicism – as you WILL someday find out….. <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    [quote:3r2gzjip]The Church is the pillar and foundation if they follow God’s instructions

    Ah, Ron. You are starting to really crack me up. That isn’t what the Bible says. It simply says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. YOU added this other stuff onto the end. YOU are making void the word of God by your man made traditions. [/quote:3r2gzjip]
    Are you then saying that ALL Catholics are going to Heaven dispite so many variations of beliefs (or lack of) within the Catholic Church? That’s what you are suggesting!

    [quote:3r2gzjip]
    but it isn’t some “denomination” that claims religious superiority and does so many of the things that goes against God’s Word such as yours or JW’s, Mormans, Moslems etc….

    And yet… I’m listening to the bile and you aren’t? So how does my Church go agaisnt the bible which you jsut tried to explain away by adding your own idea onto the end of a very clear, poignant Biblical verse? [/quote:3r2gzjip]
    I’ve Already covered this with my other remarks above

    [quote:3r2gzjip]
    and the church that is started by Christ is all of the saved individuals put together –

    Says who? The Church is a very real institution, as evidenced by everything in the Bible. [/quote:3r2gzjip]
    Glad you asked – Read Ephesians 5:25 to 32 – [color=red:3r2gzjip]”Husbands, love your wives, even as [u:3r2gzjip]Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish[/u:3r2gzjip]. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it,[u:3r2gzjip] even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.[/color:3r2gzjip] [/u:3r2gzjip] (I skipped verse 31 so you don’t get entirely confused) And I underlined what He is saying about His Church

    [quote:3r2gzjip]
    so how does anyone figure that Catholicism is that Church when many “catholics” don’t even care how they believe or what they believe, especially with all of your Traditions that DOES go against Scriptures.

    My Church WROTE the Scriptures. It doesn’t go against them. [/quote:3r2gzjip]
    Really? doesn’t 1 Peter have something against Private interpretation? And now you are suggesting that a GROUP of individuals can? I don’t see how that can be? Sorry pal – just look at the twisting that your church does if you want to – but you already said that you don’t care to look at my website… your choosing to be blind and I can’t stop that.

    [quote:3r2gzjip]
    Satan divides marriages too – what is your point?

    Yes, you are right, and when Satan divides a marriage, it ruins the marriage. Hence, when your Church is splintered, it just goes to show how fake it was. But it doesn’t endanger the *institution* of marriage when one couple fails, and in the same way Satan cannot get his hands on the real *institution*, the Catholic Church. I find your analogy very fitting[/quote:3r2gzjip].
    Thank you but you still continue to double talk as in saying “the real institution, the Catholic Church” that is your opinion, not a fact as I can show you but you don’t have the eyes to see or the ears to hear either.

    [quote:3r2gzjip]You are saying nothing that I haven’t heard from Scriptures – Matthew 7:13+14 tells us the same thing to the max! Jesus told His desciples to go and preach, making others into believers in Matthew 28:20 – that is my authority and that has never changed yet.

    Sure, but His disciples recieved their authority from Him. Did He come to you in a vision and tell you that YOUR way is correct? (And it is YOUR way.)[/quote:3r2gzjip]_________________
    His word is the same today as it was then – God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow- or don’t you ever seek His will in His word? I see no difference in His wish nor His way – read Romans 10:14-17

    #6885

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]

    Where do you get that goofy notion? Don’t tell me, let me guess your church -right?[/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    No. from logic class. Actually, I wouldn’t even need to take a logic class to figure that one out, it is so obvious to anyone but the most biased of individuals. You can’t interpret a book with a book, it doesn’t work. Since you clearly have trouble understand the most basic tenets of logic, let me spell it out for you.

    You have three Bible verses. A,B, C.

    What does A mean? Well we look at B for that of course. But how do we know what B means? Well we look at C for that of course. And how do we know what C means? Well we look at… uh, well, hmmm… See the problem? To “know” what C means you have to interpret it using other parts of the Bible, but eventually, you circle RIGHT BACK to where you came from, and you didn’t really gain anything.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]Here’s the double talk – first you admit that only God can forgve sins but then you add that He gave the power to His apostles (which then gives it through apostlic succession no doubt to priests) So here is a perfect case of which is it God alone or God + men? It cannot be both because then it wouldn’t be God alone.[/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    I noticed you completely ignored such a question as miracles. God forgives miracles THROUGH His Apostles. You don’t want this to be true but it is. A plain reading of Scripture says so.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]Oh is that so? So tell me where the Bible says to PRAY to Mary +saints, purgatory, the meriting graces through sacraments, These are just for starters for I guarantee that the twisting is done on YOUR part![/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    All over the place. We have explained the praying. Purgatory is found not only in 1 Corinthians, as well as the parable of the man locked in jail until he has paid every last penny, but also in 2 Macabees, which of course you don’t accept as the Bible, but that is because… you don’t have a clue what the Bible is.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]That is your unfortunate free will choice and for your info God hasn’t let His Church fail yet but that has nothing to do with Catholicism – as you WILL someday find out….. <img src=” title=”Wink” />[/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    Here is where you are wrong, yet again. If the gates of Hell didn’t prevail, what exactly happened for the first fifteen hundred years of the Church? Hmm, a problem for you this is…

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]Are you then saying that ALL Catholics are going to Heaven dispite so many variations of beliefs (or lack of) within the Catholic Church? That’s what you are suggesting![/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    It has nothing to do with what I am suggesting. I never once said every Catholic is going to Heaven. Every practicing Catholic who stays away from mortal sin will, but that has nothing to do with this at all. I can tell you are running out of arguments because you have no alternative explanations, and are setting up straw men ad absurdum arguments, without ever touching the real issue.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]Glad you asked – Read Ephesians 5:25 to 32 – [color=red:2y8b5i8o]”Husbands, love your wives, even as [u:2y8b5i8o]Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish[/u:2y8b5i8o]. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it,[u:2y8b5i8o] even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.[/color:2y8b5i8o] [/u:2y8b5i8o] (I skipped verse 31 so you don’t get entirely confused) And I underlined what He is saying about His Church [/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    Exactly. The Church is very real. Thank you for pointing out this wonderful verse.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]Really? doesn’t 1 Peter have something against Private interpretation? [/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    Yes, the very private interpreting YOU are doing.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]And now you are suggesting that a GROUP of individuals can?[/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    Not any random group of individuals grabbed off the street. But the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, can indeed interpret the Scriptures.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]I don’t see how that can be?[/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    Because you don’t WANT it to be, you close your mind to any possibility.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]Sorry pal – just look at the twisting that your church does if you want to -[/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    It doesn’t. Ron, everything my Church says is in perfect harmony with the Bible, which it wrote. You don’t WANT this to be true, so you try to find reasons why it can’t be. And yet you are forced to abandon logic, set up straw men, try to ignore the fact that you are adding your own private interpretations, hanging onto to your own traditions…

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]but you already said that you don’t care to look at my website… your choosing to be blind and I can’t stop that. [/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    Choosing to be blind? As I have said before, far greater apologists than you have attacked the Church, and I have read plenty of their fallacious and erroneous arguments, listened to their debates, and even, actually, corresponded with a few of them–there is nothing on your website I haven’t heard before.

    [quote:2y8b5i8o]Thank you but you still continue to double talk as in saying “the real institution, the Catholic Church” that is your opinion, not a fact as I can show you but you don’t have the eyes to see or the ears to hear either.[/quote:2y8b5i8o]

    Matthew 16: 15-19. Once again, it is not my opinion, it is the plain reading of the Bible. One of these days, when you feel like following your own advice and reading Scripture for what it is, come over to my side.

    #6889

    Ron K
    Member

    Uncertaindrummer says to respond to my quotes:

    [quote:10y3no3e]Where do you get that goofy notion? Don’t tell me, let me guess your church -right?

    No. from logic class. Actually, I wouldn’t even need to take a logic class to figure that one out, it is so obvious to anyone but the most biased of individuals. You can’t interpret a book with a book, it doesn’t work. Since you clearly have trouble understand the most basic tenets of logic, let me spell it out for you.

    You have three Bible verses. A,B, C.

    What does A mean? Well we look at B for that of course. But how do we know what B means? Well we look at C for that of course. And how do we know what C means? Well we look at… uh, well, hmmm… See the problem? To “know” what C means you have to interpret it using other parts of the Bible, but eventually, you circle RIGHT BACK to where you came from, and you didn’t really gain anything. [/quote:10y3no3e]
    Well Your reasoning isn’t inspired now is it !!! For 3 verses of Scriptures which is inspired, tells us 1 – Rom 10:17- So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    2 – 1 Pet 2:2 – As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    3 – John 8:31+32 – Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    So if we get faith through His Word and grow in His word and know the truth with His word – Then His Word is complete to make me be able to be prepared for all things (Which is exactly what 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says) So
    what about Yoouuurrrrr “opinions!”
    [quote:10y3no3e]
    Here’s the double talk – first you admit that only God can forgve sins but then you add that He gave the power to His apostles (which then gives it through apostlic succession no doubt to priests) So here is a perfect case of which is it God alone or God + men? It cannot be both because then it wouldn’t be God alone.

    I noticed you completely ignored such a question as miracles. God forgives miracles THROUGH His Apostles. You don’t want this to be true but it is. A plain reading of Scripture says so. [/quote:10y3no3e]
    Miracles is one thing, Forgiveness or removal of sins is another different area that no man can do – That is what you’ve been conditioned to think

    [quote:10y3no3e]
    Oh is that so? So tell me where the Bible says to PRAY to Mary +saints, purgatory, the meriting graces through sacraments, These are just for starters for I guarantee that the twisting is done on YOUR part!

    All over the place. We have explained the praying. Purgatory is found not only in 1 Corinthians, as well as the parable of the man locked in jail until he has paid every last penny, but also in 2 Macabees, which of course you don’t accept as the Bible, but that is because… you don’t have a clue what the Bible is. [/quote:10y3no3e]
    I know what it doesn’t say – and I know what His plan is according to His Word – You just don’t understand it – or you simply deny it.
    [quote:10y3no3e]
    That is your unfortunate free will choice and for your info God hasn’t let His Church fail yet but that has nothing to do with Catholicism – as you WILL someday find out…..

    Here is where you are wrong, yet again. If the gates of Hell didn’t prevail, what exactly happened for the first fifteen hundred years of the Church? Hmm, a problem for you this is… [/quote:10y3no3e]
    The gates of Hell hasn’t prevailed against His Church but yours? – you pray to saints, preach Purgatory, Penances for sin, talk of a “real presence” in the Eucharist, have mass, – Hummmmm? Looks like Satan’s done quite well with your church.

    [quote:10y3no3e]
    Are you then saying that ALL Catholics are going to Heaven dispite so many variations of beliefs (or lack of) within the Catholic Church? That’s what you are suggesting!

    It has nothing to do with what I am suggesting. I never once said every Catholic is going to Heaven. Every practicing Catholic who stays away from mortal sin will, but that has nothing to do with this at all. I can tell you are running out of arguments because you have no alternative explanations, and are setting up straw men ad absurdum arguments, without ever touching the real issue. [/quote:10y3no3e]

    Oh the venial sin point of which I forgot to mention – Yet James says If you commit one sin, you are guilty of all and Rev 21:27 says no sin is ever going to Heaven – so which sins are only “venial?” As to the Catholic that does or doesn’t go to Heaven, you’ve said that Catholics are His Church, so then which ones go to Heaven or which ones don’t. Surely you don’t think if someone partakes in daily mass and by sacramental methods someone can merit their salvation

    [quote:10y3no3e]
    Glad you asked – Read Ephesians 5:25 to 32 – “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (I skipped verse 31 so you don’t get entirely confused) And I underlined what He is saying about His Church

    Exactly. The Church is very real. Thank you for pointing out this wonderful verse. [/quote:10y3no3e]
    I’m just showing that His Church consists only of Believers, not some denomination

    you are welcomed

    : [quote:10y3no3e]
    Really? doesn’t 1 Peter have something against Private interpretation?

    Yes, the very private interpreting YOU are doing. [/quote:10y3no3e]
    read it again for I don’t think he says that we shouldn’t or couldn’t understand Scriptures
    [quote:10y3no3e]
    And now you are suggesting that a GROUP of individuals can?

    Not any random group of individuals grabbed off the street. But the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, can indeed interpret the Scriptures. [/quote:10y3no3e]

    That is only because you don’t see their mistakes.

    [quote:10y3no3e]I don’t see how that can be?

    Because you don’t WANT it to be, you close your mind to any possibility. [/quote:10y3no3e]
    More opinions?
    [quote:10y3no3e]
    Sorry pal – just look at the twisting that your church does if you want to –

    It doesn’t. Ron, everything my Church says is in perfect harmony with the Bible, which it wrote. You don’t WANT this to be true, so you try to find reasons why it can’t be. And yet you are forced to abandon logic, set up straw men, try to ignore the fact that you are adding your own private interpretations, hanging onto to your own traditions… [/quote:10y3no3e]
    LOL!

    [quote:10y3no3e]but you already said that you don’t care to look at my website… your choosing to be blind and I can’t stop that.

    Choosing to be blind? As I have said before, far greater apologists than you have attacked the Church, and I have read plenty of their fallacious and erroneous arguments, listened to their debates, and even, actually, corresponded with a few of them–there is nothing on your website I haven’t heard before. [/quote:10y3no3e]
    Then I guess I’ll stop casting my pearls your way

    [quote:10y3no3e]
    Thank you but you still continue to double talk as in saying “the real institution, the Catholic Church” that is your opinion, not a fact as I can show you but you don’t have the eyes to see or the ears to hear either.

    Matthew 16: 15-19. Once again, it is not my opinion, it is the plain reading of the Bible. One of these days, when you feel like following your own advice and reading Scripture for what it is, come over to my side.
    [/quote:10y3no3e]
    I can assure you that I will never be a Catholic – been there, and repented of that, so why would I want to go back? No need to answer this question.

    #6891

    [quote:26zll0r1]
    Well Your reasoning isn’t inspired now is it !!! For 3 verses of Scriptures which is inspired, tells us 1 – Rom 10:17- So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    2 – 1 Pet 2:2 – As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    3 – John 8:31+32 – Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    So if we get faith through His Word and grow in His word and know the truth with His word – Then His Word is complete to make me be able to be prepared for all things (Which is exactly what 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says) So
    what about Yoouuurrrrr “opinions!”
    [/quote:26zll0r1]

    Once again, Ron, you not only failed to interact with my argument, you came up with a bunch of drivel that has nothing to do with it. Christianity does not require an abandoning of reason and logic, and yet you have abandoned both.

    [quote:26zll0r1]Miracles is one thing, Forgiveness or removal of sins is another different area that no man can do – That is what you’ve been conditioned to think[/quote:26zll0r1]

    Once again, no response. God forgives sins THROUGH certain people. It is still God forgiving the sins, and you refuse to understand this. You are so wrong about everything that it is pointless to talk to you. If I said “White is white” you would say “No it isn’t”. There is no way to argue with that. You are simply saying things that are wrong. Only God can perform miracles, yet He performs them through others. Only God forgives sins, yet He can do it through others. Your position is untenable.

    [quote:26zll0r1]
    I know what it doesn’t say – and I know what His plan is according to His Word – You just don’t understand it – or you simply deny it.
    [/quote:26zll0r1]

    Once again, Ron, you have no argument, no stand, no reason at all for your beliefs. I am growing tired of this.

    [quote:26zll0r1]The gates of Hell hasn’t prevailed against His Church but yours? – you pray to saints, preach Purgatory, Penances for sin, talk of a “real presence” in the Eucharist, have mass, – Hummmmm? Looks like Satan’s done quite well with your church. [/quote:26zll0r1]

    Again, your arguments are invalid. In a court of law, this argument would be thrown out for being prejudicial and non substantial. It is an argument ad captandum–meant to prejudice those listening. Unfortunately for you, in this particular discussino, there aren’t any other anti catholic fundamentalists to prejudice, so the argument is even MORE useless.

    We have already shown how prayer to the Saints is valid and you were helpless to prove otherwise. Purgatory is simply an obvious solution to the problem of what happens to righteous but imperfect men after death, as well as being clearly propounded in the Bible. the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is so obvious in the bible that only a blind or severly biased individual could explain it away. Your argument is once again hollow.

    [quote:26zll0r1]Oh the venial sin point of which I forgot to mention – Yet James says If you commit one sin, you are guilty of all and Rev 21:27 says no sin is ever going to Heaven – so which sins are only “venial?”[/quote:26zll0r1]

    Once again you make my argument for me. If some sins are not deadly (and some aren’t. John specificall says so) what happens to the man who dies with venial sin? He is purged of it as by fire.

    [quote:26zll0r1]As to the Catholic that does or doesn’t go to Heaven, you’ve said that Catholics are His Church,[/quote:26zll0r1]

    I said the Catholic Church is His Church. It is only your preconceived ideas of what a Church should be that is making you put words in my mouth.

    [quote:26zll0r1]so then which ones go to Heaven or which ones don’t. [/quote:26zll0r1]

    The ones justified by God will go to Heaven.

    [quote:26zll0r1]Surely you don’t think if someone partakes in daily mass and by sacramental methods someone can merit their salvation[/quote:26zll0r1]

    No, I don’t. Meriting salvation is impossible. We are saved by God’s merciful Grace. We also have to do our part though, which is why we must show faith and have works.

    [quote:26zll0r1]I’m just showing that His Church consists only of Believers, not some denomination [/quote:26zll0r1]

    The Church isn’t “some denomination”. It is THE CHURCH that Christ always spoke about.

    [quote:26zll0r1]

    read it again for I don’t think he says that we shouldn’t or couldn’t understand Scriptures
    [/quote:26zll0r1]

    He says we shouldn’t privately interpret them, EXACTLY as you are doing. Peter is giving us a warning of poeple exactly like you!

    [quote:26zll0r1]That is only because you don’t see their mistakes.[/quote:26zll0r1]

    Of course anyone can make mistakes. But the magisterium, or the Pope when speaking infallibly, do not make mistakes.

    [quote:26zll0r1]
    Then I guess I’ll stop casting my pearls your way
    [/quote:26zll0r1]

    You have no pearls to cast.

    [quote:26zll0r1]
    Thank you but you still continue to double talk as in saying “the real institution, the Catholic Church” that is your opinion, not a fact as I can show you but you don’t have the eyes to see or the ears to hear either.
    [/quote:26zll0r1]

    I am making no double talk at all. You don’t even understand the words you are proclaiming. I have never said anything OTHER than the fact that the Church is a real institution. The only rason protestants don’t want it to be so is because they know that if it is, just like Jesus and Paul and all of the Apostles proclaimed, then the reformation is a sham, because Jesus’ Church couldn’t be founded fifteen hundred years after He said it was.

    [quote:26zll0r1]
    I can assure you that I will never be a Catholic – been there, and repented of that, so why would I want to go back? No need to answer this question.[/quote:26zll0r1]

    you have never been a Catholic. Even if you were in name, you clearly did not and do not understand ANY of its dogmas and doctrines. And, in what is oh so wildly surprising (/sarcasm), you failed to engage my mention of Matthew 16: 15-19 because there is nothing for you say. Jesus founded a Church, He founded it on Peter, and it lives to this day, in the form of the Catholic Church.

    I will not respond to any more of your posts Ron. You do nothing but spout anti catholic gibberish and I refuse to waste my time talking with one whose mind is anti-logical, anti-reasoning, and extremely anti catholic. You make no attempt to understand what we are saying, you make no attempt to understand our doctrines, and you make no attempt to even defend your own traditions of men, because they are indefensible.

    I simply will not continue. This is fruitless and it isn’t helping anything. Have a pleasent evening.

    #6892

    weather
    Member

    Hey Ron, who made your “church”? I bet it was a sinful person,all churchs except the Catholic Church (which was created by Jesus) are made by sinners(man or women).

    #6900

    weather
    Member

    Ron,How can you give me a better insight on salvation that I don’t already know?I’ve been around the block quite a few more times then you.And for reading the Bible everyone interprets it different.And leaving all the Bible verses aside,THE only way to get to heaven is to believe JESUS shed his blood for us and died on the cross for everybody(and if you don’t believe this then your not a Christian)

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