Church Council Canons

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  • #2130

    twinc
    Participant

    Can or have Canons and anathemas been over ruled – I refer in particular to Vatican 1 Canon 1[4&5] ruling against acceptance of Origins evolution as forbidden and anathema to and for Catholics – any comments – twinc

    #10438

    LARobert
    Participant

    So here is what the actual statement of the Council Fathers says in English Translation. After we will look at how it applies to the Theory of Evolution.

    [quote:3o6lxkni]4. If anyone says that finite things, both corporal and spiritual, or at any rate, spiritual, emanated from the divine substance; or that the divine essence, by the manifestation and evolution of itself becomes all things or, finally, that God is a universal or indefinite being which by self determination establishes the totality of things distinct in genera, species and individuals: let him be anathema.

    5. If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God; or holds that God did not create by his will free from all necessity, but as necessarily as he necessarily loves himself; or denies that the world was created for the glory of God: let him be anathema.[/quote:3o6lxkni]
    Not one word of the declaration discusses, or hints at how God designed that mankind, or plants and animals would develop. It does not define that God created the first man who looked and acted like ourselves, or if He created the world, planets and universe, and at a later time after a period of development an immortal soul, with free will was infused into the first human parents. It only says that God is the creator of all things.

    The reference to Evolution in the text is not a condemnation of the theory that God Created man, infused a soul in him and that there was a physical evolution, but rather that we without God’s intervention or creative power evolved an immortal soul, or rational mind on our own without or outside of God’s creative power and will.

    Catholics may believe in Evolution, or a literal Seven day/24hr day creation as described in Genesis. All the Church requires is that we believe that God created all things, physical and spiritual out of nothing, and that He could have created it as described in the first chapter of Genesis.

    One of the errors of the Modernists, which came to it’s theoretical conclusion in the writings of Teilhard de Chardin, was that Both God and Creation are unfinished and continue to evolve. He implied that God really did not know how things would work out, because He like ourselves was still learning things and developing. So it was not Darwin’s theory of Evolution of the Species that was condemned, but rather that our souls evolved until they became human souls, without the aid of God, and His creative power.

    #10441

    twinc
    Participant

    you yourself and many other Catholics alas and sadly appear to be enmeshed in modernist errors for imho Catholic Doctrine of Creation is not at all as you accepted and have been it seems misled to accept – imho Catholic Doctrine of Creation = simul et ex nihilo = in the beginning in each of 6 x 24 hr days in an instant out of nothing God created everything very good = complete in its whole substance = no millions of years of Origins evolution,including theistic evolution necessary or possible – see http://www.cfnews.org/sung-pio.htm – winc

    #10442

    LARobert
    Participant

    Using the folks at Catholic Family News as a resource explains why it is that you would reject not only the Neo-Modernist teachings which have been condemned by the Church, and which are taught by many of the liberal “theologians” and clergy of the past 40 years or so, but also the Authentic teachings of the Church which Popes from Pope Leo XIII, Pope St. Pius X, and Venerable Pope Pius XII have left us, and the Popes who CFN tends to disregard, and cast doubt on the Popes since Blessed John XXIII through the currently gloriously reigning Pope Benedict XVI. While walking a very fine line approaching the Sede Vacantist position. The writings of the editor and contributing reporters of the CFN have positioned themselves in a potentially dangerous place time and time again as has the SSPX by paying lipservice to the Holy See, while suggesting that the Popes since Vatican II can be dismissed or ignored. Having been in the center of the Lefebvre camp during the years I was in Econe, and seen the manipulation of Abp Lefebvre during his final years, I could no longer place myself or my former pseudo-superiors in a position of judging the Pope, as it seems you may be doing.

    While you have couched your rejection of my orthodoxy with the use of “imho”, and lumped me with those who profess heretical and heterodox teachings, I would ask you to show where the Church prior to or after Vatican II required as De Fide the belief in a 6 day 24 hr Creation. I’d also like to know where I have posted, promoted or endorsed a teaching that is contrary to God being the creator of all things visibilium et invisibilium. That He did not create all things out of nothing, or if you will carefully re-read my posting that I endorsed the false teachings of the modernists. I would suggest that you and your sources have made as dangerous an error as the Modernists, by limiting yourselves to only those parts of the Magisterial Teachings of the Church that you find comfort in.

    You remain in my poor prayers, as I hope I do in yours.

    #10444

    twinc
    Participant

    it seems there are many who think they know what the Church teaches and all declare that ” this is what the Church teaches” – this had led to confusion,division and heresy and it appears the heretics are presently dominant in the Church as was the case in the Arian heresy – the Church teaches that what the Church Fathers accepted and taught unanimously or in majority must be accepted as and so must the six 24hr days of creation etc – see http://www.scripturecatholic.com – scroll down L/H column to science etc and also via google watch and listen carefully to video at [Catholic Doctrine of Creation video]Sungenis – twinc

    #10445

    LARobert
    Participant

    Pope Pius XII agreed to the academic freedom to study the scientific implications of evolution, so long as Catholic dogma is not violated, in his encyclical Humani Generis he writes…
    [quote:zwxjbbch]…the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faithful. Some however rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question[/quote:zwxjbbch]
    Regarding the strict requirement that you and Mr. Salza require of anyone who you would include or exclued from the Church, the Venerable Pope Pius XII writes further regarding any future scientific and theological development…

    [quote:zwxjbbch]This certainly would be praiseworthy in the case of clearly proved facts; but caution must be used when there is rather question of hypotheses, having some sort of scientific foundation, in which the doctrine contained in Sacred Scripture or in Tradition is involved[/quote:zwxjbbch]
    Like the writings of the Church Father’s the Pope when writing an encyclical does not envoke the charism of Infallibility, however he does warrent serious consideration when one is informing his or her thought on what the Church teaches.

    A review of the CCC sections, Part I Section II Paragraph 4 ss 279-324, cover Creation, and does not make the same requirements that you and Mr. Salza do.

    If the Catechism that was published by Pope John Paul II is not to your liking, then it’s primary source may better serve to show the Catholic position does not require the limited interpretation you would like to enforce. Please read the Catechism of the Council of Trent. Where nowhere is found a requirement to believe in six 24hr periods of creation. Read Article 1 of the Catechism.[url:zwxjbbch]http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tindex.htm[/url:zwxjbbch]

    Please give a De Fide statement that all Catholics must hold to the six day 24 hr creation from a Dogmatic Council, or other reliable source. Mr. Salza, while a good scholar, and revert, even if to the SPPX is not the Magisterium. While I find much of his writing to be orthodox, some of his conclusions, are personal opinion and not Dogmatic teachings. It is better to remain faithful to Peter, than those who tell us that Peter can be ignored, and they know better what the Church really means.

    #10446

    twinc
    Participant
    "LARobert":35y5v1c1 wrote:
    So here is what the actual statement of the Council Fathers says in English Translation. After we will look at how it applies to the Theory of Evolution.

    [quote:35y5v1c1]4. If anyone says that finite things, both corporal and spiritual, or at any rate, spiritual, emanated from the divine substance; or that the divine essence, by the manifestation and evolution of itself becomes all things or, finally, that God is a universal or indefinite being which by self determination establishes the totality of things distinct in genera, species and individuals: let him be anathema.

    5. If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God; or holds that God did not create by his will free from all necessity, but as necessarily as he necessarily loves himself; or denies that the world was created for the glory of God: let him be anathema.[/quote:35y5v1c1]
    Not one word of the declaration discusses, or hints at how God designed that mankind, or plants and animals would develop. It does not define that God created the first man who looked and acted like ourselves, or if He created the world, planets and universe, and at a later time after a period of development an immortal soul, with free will was infused into the first human parents. It only says that God is the creator of all things.

    The reference to Evolution in the text is not a condemnation of the theory that God Created man, infused a soul in him and that there was a physical evolution, but rather that we without God’s intervention or creative power evolved an immortal soul, or rational mind on our own without or outside of God’s creative power and will.

    Catholics may believe in Evolution, or a literal Seven day/24hr day creation as described in Genesis. All the Church requires is that we believe that God created all things, physical and spiritual out of nothing, and that He could have created it as described in the first chapter of Genesis.

    One of the errors of the Modernists, which came to it’s theoretical conclusion in the writings of Teilhard de Chardin, was that Both God and Creation are unfinished and continue to evolve. He implied that God really did not know how things would work out, because He like ourselves was still learning things and developing. So it was not Darwin’s theory of Evolution of the Species that was condemned, but rather that our souls evolved until they became human souls, without the aid of God, and His creative power.[/quote:35y5v1c1]
    what the Church teaches is not in contention but the many varied and incorrect interpretations and conclusions thereof and there from – imho as I read it ‘permission to research and/or discuss does not mean permission to accept or believe – research and discussion since 1950 has been ongoing by Catholic experts and specialists as required in both and all the disciplines of Theology and Science and these can be found together and united at http://www.kolbecenter.org – twinc

    #10452

    LARobert
    Participant

    I’ve read the Kolbe Center’s work before. I read their arguments again today. I do find them slanted, and biased. Most of all I find the misrepresentation of Pope Benedict’s statement on their main page to support their postion to be dishonest. Please see the reply I made to the new thread you’ve started on the same subject.

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