Catholic-Lutheran Marriage

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  • #7393

    Minnesota is roughly 40% Catholic, 40% Lutheran and 20% everything else.

    I think it’s prominent in areas with German heritage like Minnesota and Wisconsin. Minnesota also has a significant Scandinavian heritage which I think also contributes to the Lutheran population.

    #7396
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I am surrounded by Lutherans in my area of Mesa (retirement communities).

    [quote:1nteonrd]I often wonder what the divorce ratio is between Catholics and Lutherans?[/quote:1nteonrd]
    I think for the “high church”-ish religions (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutheranism), the bigger difference is not between them but, rather, between those who are observant of their religion and those who are not.

    In other words, I would expect to find a similar (low) divorce rate among both faithful Catholics and faithful Lutherans and a similar (higher) divorce rate among the unobservant of both groups.

    #7397

    Overall I know the divorce rate amongst Catholics is the same as the rest of the population.

    But that doesn’t take into account faithfulness to Catholic teachings.

    #7398
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    “In other words, I would expect to find a similar (low) divorce rate among both faithful Catholics and faithful Lutherans and a similar (higher) divorce rate among the unobservant of both groups.”
    I think I agree with Benedict.

    I also agree with Jon that areas with German and Scandinavian heritage have large populations of Lutherans. I am from Iowa/Minnesota and am used to a “mixed” religious community. In other words, Lutherans and Catholics are in approx. equal numbers as far as I know.

    XC’s question set off a light bulb in my head, though. How much of the hostility between Lutherans and Catholics (in both directions) is due to ignorance and misunderstanding (to clarify…I am not calling XC ignorant!). I would guess a lot. Being from the midwest, I am used to dealing with the differences and loving others regardless of their religion. There are obviously important differences between the two, but not so large as many assume. There are gross misunderstandings of Lutheranism by most Catholics and gross misunderstandings of Catholicism by most Lutherans. I think a little education would go a long way in our quest for Ecumenism (I have no idea how to spell that). Sadly, instead it seems like we all tend to shut our ears and speak before we really know what we’re speaking about.

    Sorry for that side rant.

    Any ideas on how to expose my (future) children to both Catholic and Lutheran teachings?

    #7401
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    By the way, this is an interesting article that my boyfriend just discovered.

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article … 84,00.html

    #7402
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    That is where I was going with my earlier question.

    If you agree with the Joint Declaration on Justification between Catholicism and Lutheranism, what distinctly Lutheran teachings are there that one would not find in Catholicism?

    A problem I see is that a number of Lutheran teachings are rejections of Catholic teachings. Your children would learn about the role of the Pope and Sacred Tradition from Catholicism but then be taught sola Scriptura in Lutheranism. They would learn about the Real Presence through transubstantiation in Catholicism but through consubstantiation in Lutheranism (consubstantiation regards transubstantial views of the Eucharist as idolatrous).

    #7403
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:8hropxhe]That is where I was going with my earlier question.

    If you agree with the Joint Declaration on Justification between Catholicism and Lutheranism, what distinctly Lutheran teachings are there that one would not find in Catholicism?

    A problem I see is that a number of Lutheran teachings are rejections of Catholic teachings. Your children would learn about the role of the Pope and Sacred Tradition from Catholicism but then be taught sola Scriptura in Lutheranism. They would learn about the Real Presence through transubstantiation in Catholicism but through consubstantiation in Lutheranism (consubstantiation regards transubstantial views of the Eucharist as idolatrous).[/quote:8hropxhe]
    [color=darkred:8hropxhe]
    On that note, I’d be interested in talking to someone who was raised in this manner and what the results were.[/color:8hropxhe]

    #7404
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I think you answered your question with the second part of your post. What can I find in a Lutheran service that I cannot find at Catholic mass? The Lutheran faith, including the teachings you outline. In addition, the Lord’s supper.

    I did not mean this to be a discussion of whether Lutherans or Catholics are right. That is a discussion for another post and an argument that I know goes around and around in circles. It’s exhausting and both sides give less than satisfactory answers.

    My question is simply: I respect the Catholic faith although through prayer I know that I cannot be Catholic. I am willing to allow my children to be baptized Catholic and raised in the Catholic faith, so long as they also truly understand my faith, something that I feel can only be accomplished by exposure to the Lutheran Church (just as understanding of the Catholic faith can only be accomplished through exposure to the Catholic Church). How can this logistically be accomplished? Does the Catholic Church mandate to attend mass every week preclude attendance at a Lutheran service every other week?

    #7406
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Sorry for all of the posts today. Victor must have responded while I was writing.

    I only know one person who was raised in this way. In her case, her father was Catholic and mother was Methodist. She may be an extraordinary case, but she was no less devoted to God than anyone I know who was raised in only one church. As she grew to an age where she was able to choose a church, she chose to attend the Catholic Church and is now married to a Lutheran. The difference is that she is understanding and loving of Protestant religions. This is not to say that all Catholics are anti-Protestant, but as stated by someone earlier (Benedict?), it tends to be more prevalent in cradle Catholics.

    #7410
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    They would be able to attend Lutheran services in addition to mass, so long as they attend mass every week. However, they would not be allowed to receive communion in both churches. If they are Catholic, they are not to demonstrate communion outside of the Catholic Church (and, of course, non-Catholics are not to receive communion within the Church).

    #7419
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:26i7rlp0]They would be able to attend Lutheran services in addition to mass, so long as they attend mass every week. However, they would not be allowed to receive communion in both churches. If they are Catholic, they are not to demonstrate communion outside of the Catholic Church (and, of course, non-Catholics are not to receive communion within the Church).[/quote:26i7rlp0]

    [color=darkred:26i7rlp0]Isn’t that like polygamy? <img loading=” title=”Razz” /> [/color:26i7rlp0]

    #7423
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    That would be it exactly.

    #7428
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Mixed marriages, by which is understood the marriage of Catholics to non-Catholics, have always been disapproved of by the Church.
    Because in such marriages the proper training of the children is a matter of great difficulty, if not altogether impossible;
    Because such unions are productive of no concord, no true happiness;
    Because the Catholic is in great danger of losing his or her faith;
    And besides, the non-Catholic may at any time obtain a divorce, leave his or her Catholic partner, and contract another marriage.
    Even in the Old Testament mixed marriages were prohibited; the Jews were not permitted to make marriages with the Canaanites (Deut. vii. 3), nor indeed with the Samaritans, although they kept the law of God and had the books of Moses, because of the heathen ceremonies they observed. In like manner in the present day the Church discourages the marriage of Catholics to non-Catholics, who, though they call themselves Christians, hold doctrines which are at variance with the teaching of Christ. The Church warns her children against such alliances, just as a loving father might warn his son against undertaking some journey which he knows will expose him to great perils. In early times parents who gave their daughter in marriage to a heretic were subjected to a five years’ penance.
    The dangers attendant on mixed marriages are these: The non-Catholic party, whether a Protestant or not a Christian, far from assisting in the education of the children, will be an obstacle to it, and will perhaps throw scorn and ridicule on Catholic faith and practice. And even if this is not the case, the example of the unbelieving parent will have the worst consequences for the children. And not unfrequently it happens that the non-Catholic, urged by the ministers of his religion, or by his relatives, who represent that it will be prejudicial to their temporal interests if his children are brought up as Catholics, yields to their persuasions, and departs from his promise that they should be so brought up.

    And what becomes of the children if their Catholic parent dies, and the other espouses a member of his or her own religion? A Catholic cannot do his children a more cruel wrong than by marrying one who is not of his own religion. Moreover, true happiness can hardly exist in such a marriage, where there is not union on the most important of all matters. Heart-felt affection and confidence between husband and wife are scarcely possible if they differ on a point which is all-important, namely religion.

    Mixed marriages are, moreover, fraught with no slight danger to the salvation of those who contract them. The wise and enlightened King Solomon took to himself heathen wives in his old age, and they prevailed over him so far, that from a worshipper of the true God he became an idolater, and allowed temples of the false gods to be erected in his kingdom. The influence of heretics who call themselves Christians is often more perilous than that of open unbelievers. If reading heretical books is apt to mislead, how much more is continual and close contact with heretics to be dreaded! Besides, we are far more ready to adopt the opinions of one to whom we are attached, for we are blinded by affection.

    The Holy Father declares that mixed marriages have the effect of obliterating the distinction between truth and error, and fostering the idea that all religions are equally good. Furthermore mixed marriages are most unfair for the Catholic party. The non-Catholic may at any time obtain a divorce and marry again; whereas the Catholic is bound not to take a second partner as long as the former lives. What an equivocal position is that of a divorced woman! She is married, and yet she has no husband; she has the mortification of seeing her rightful husband with another wife, while she is condemned to live a lonely life, looked down upon perhaps by the world; and worst of all, to be separated from some, if not all, of her children. Well then may the Church exhort Christian people to beware of entering into matrimony with those who are aliens to the faith they hold!

    2. The Church tolerates mixed marriages on three conditions:

    Both parties must promise that their children shall be brought up as Catholics;
    The Catholic must promise to endeavour to bring the non-Catholic to the knowledge of the truth;
    The non-Catholic must promise to allow the Catholic liberty for the free exercise of his or her religion. Without these three conditions the Church will not sanction a mixed marriage.
    By tolerating or permitting mixed marriages the Church does not approve them; on the contrary she strongly disapproves of them and she insists so forcibly on the children being brought up in Catholic faith, because this is the main object of matrimony. It has already been shown that the chief end of marriage is to train up children in the knowledge and fear of God; the aim of the Christian parent should rather be to leave behind him inheritors of the kingdom of heaven than heirs of his earthly possessions. Consequently it is the first duty of a Catholic, who has wedded one who does hold the faith, to insure his child’s salvation in as far as he can. How deeply is that parent to be commiserated who destroys the soul of her offspring, by allowing the poison of error to be instilled its mind!
    When the first glamour of an ill-regulated affection fades away, and conscience again makes its voice heard, the path of wedded life is beset with thorns. The birth of the first child, which ought to be an occasion of glad rejoicing, is a source of anxiety to the mother for she fears that it will be taught to regard the true faith with hostility. How her conscience reproaches her! And each successive child, which ought to be welcomed as a blessing from the hand of God is a fresh accuser, calling to mind her treachery.

    The Catholic party is also bound to bring the non-Catholic to the knowledge of the truth, not by coercion or persuasion, for proselytising only adds to number of nominal Catholics, not of the loyal children of the Church, and is abhorrent to the Catholic Church, who only desires the erring to be brought to her fold of their own free will, and through full conviction. Let them be won by prayer and good example: “Let the unbelieving husbands be won by the conversation of the wives” (1 Pet. iii. 1). If the Catholic wife is seen to be modest, yielding, patient, faithful, etc., the non-Catholic husband will be led to reflect, and consider whether he may not judge of the tree by its fruits. At any rate he will gradually divest himself of all his former prejudices against our holy religion. He must not be pressed with arguments and instructions, but rather every word should be carefully avoided that might wound his susceptibilities. For those who are outside the Church are not to blame because they have not had the privilege of being born and brought up in the true faith.

    http://www.truecatholic.org/marriagemixed.htm

    #7429
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    First: Although I understand the point of what you are saying regarding polygamy, I believe you are incorrect. It is only polygamy if the first and foremost commitment is to an individual church rather than to God. I am committed to my faith/church and you all are committed to the Catholic Church. But this commitment is not above my commitment to God. God is the same regardless of whether a person is standing in a Catholic or Lutheran church. I am not “cheating” on God when I attend Catholic mass. Neither would any of you be “cheating” on God if you were to attend a Lutheran service. Now, if the commitment is primarily to the Catholic Church, then the polygamy argument is more correct. This is where I have problems with the Catholic faith. But, I guess that is neither here nor there in this disucssion.

    Second: The post from Weather essentially demonstrates why I cannot in good concience raise my children in only the Catholic Church. Although I am clearly not an authority in the Catholic faith, I have strong reservations about the website you are using as an instructive reference. This website explicity denies much of Vatican II, most especially the ecumenical teachings. If, truly as Catholics, you believe in the authority of the Pope, this website is doing your faith no favors. See this link to another page on that website.
    http://www.truecatholic.org/v2ecclesio.htm#ecumenism

    #7430
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:1pcuox70]Now, if the commitment is primarily to the Catholic Church, then the polygamy argument is more correct.[/quote:1pcuox70]
    Except in the Catholic view, commitment to God is also commitment to His Church. To a Catholic, there is no disconnect.

    [quote:1pcuox70]Although I am clearly not an authority in the Catholic faith, I have strong reservations about the website you are using as an instructive reference.[/quote:1pcuox70]
    TrueCatholic.org is schismatic at best at heretical at worst.

    Weather, the group that runs the website has elected its own Pope and separated itself from the bishops.

    #7431
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    But Benedict, surely you agree that God is everybody’s God, not just the Catholic God?

    I’m not at all arguing against there being One Optimal Way to worship Him, but I think it’s a bit strong to say that those who follow a different path are worshipping a different God.

    If God is the God of Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, and possibly even atheists who might believe in “something”, then surely they are not being “promiscuous” per se. Deceived, wrong, conceited, flawed, yes; but since there [i:bg706vsy]is[/i:bg706vsy] only one God who is God, “polygamy” isn’t the charge to make.

    #7432
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    XC,

    Listen to John Martignoni’s talk on Marriage and the Eucharist[/url:1ibudjud].

    #7480
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2fw1hcxc]But Benedict, surely you agree that God is everybody’s God, not just the Catholic God?

    I’m not at all arguing against there being One Optimal Way to worship Him, but I think it’s a bit strong to say that those who follow a different path are worshipping a different God.

    If God is the God of Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, and possibly even atheists who might believe in “something”, then surely they are not being “promiscuous” per se. Deceived, wrong, conceited, flawed, yes; but since there [i:2fw1hcxc]is[/i:2fw1hcxc] only one God who is God, “polygamy” isn’t the charge to make.[/quote:2fw1hcxc]

    [color=green:2fw1hcxc]XC, where you able to listen to John Martignoni’s talk on Marriage and the Eucharist that Benedcit referred you to? If you haven’t, I encourage you to. If have already listened to it, what did you think? [/color:2fw1hcxc]

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