- October 2, 2005 at 6:28 pm #1140
Ok, I have had several conversations with people who ask “are you born again?”. When I am asked that, I ask in reply, “how do you describe born again?” Generally, they tell me about receiving the Holy Spirit after being baptized, that is, totally immersed, and falling to the floor, etc. While I had an experience myself with what I believe to be the Holy Spirit, it did not involve any of that! It was in the privacy of my own bedroom and I was alone. Anyway, I tell them tat I am baptized and I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Oh no, they tell me, that is not the same thing! I MUST be born again or I am not going to heaven! I say, hogwash! Have any of you dealt with that? Specifically with the fundamentalists groups..
AngelaOctober 2, 2005 at 7:19 pm #5462
Yes, I have. In fact I once read a real snappy reply to those people.
In reality, since you were baptixed you have been born again – you have been reborn as a child of God. However, our born again and their born again are different.
They think they are going to heaven once they accept Jesus into their hearts whereas Catholics believe it is a lifelong journey.October 14, 2005 at 12:38 am #5470
ok i’ve tried to be nice.
i read everything about how you guys feel so violated by non-catholics. how you’re bombarded by criticism and all this. “the only thing that all protestants have in common is that they all hate catholics…” whatever. yes jon…we believe that if we accept Jesus when we’re little we’re automatically going to heaven and it has nothing to do with what we do after that. gimme a break. (by the way, it is catholic where you’re baptised when you’re too young to make decisions for yourself and then “confirmed” when you’re like 5, right? ya i thought so) ya it’s only catholics who believe it’s a life-long journey. wow. i grew up in a protestant church and NOT ONE individual ever back slid while i was there and you can tell just by how they live their daily lives that they’re at peace with God and that they clearly believe it’s a life-long journey. meanwhile the strongest Catholics i know…i wouldn’t know they were even religious except when they’re in church. now obviously every catholic and every protestant aren’t the same as each other, but i totally don’t agree with what you said. i thought the fact that you were administrator meant you were an open person, and an expert, and i’ve asked you questions specifically. but you’re just very opinionated and tunnel-visioned.October 14, 2005 at 2:07 am #5471
Take a deep breath, relax. I never characterized each and every Protestant to be this way. I never have and I never will. That’s what Catholic Answers[/url:2kb8815r] does and I have tried to be different. I was making a simple reply to what this person asked/stated. They wanted clarification about a specific point of doctrine (baptism) and I shared the Catholic teaching and what I know about Fundamentalist Christian belief. That’s all I can do is share what I know.
Yes, I am the administrator of this forum, but this is a [b:2kb8815r]Catholic[/b:2kb8815r] forum and I am a [b:2kb8815r]Catholic[/b:2kb8815r]. Do you honestly expect me to say that whatever path one chooses in life is ok? My job is to allow discussion to happen, but when someone wants to know something from a Catholic point of view I most certainly share it.
I’m also a member of this forum and I have things I want to contribute and share just as much as anyone else here. Yes, I have my opinions just like you have yours. Am I any less entitled to share my opinion than you are? If you disagree with it then say why. Dialogue, don’t just blast me in another topic. My role is to let people dialogue but also to promote the truth of the Catholic faith.
I am not tunnel-visioned, but my faith teaches me to live it and proclaim it.
Sometimes I rant and rave and make blanket misjudgements. I’m sorry, I’m human. It wasn’t fair of me to chracterize every Protestant as hating Catholicism. But don’t blast me. Instead do what Jesus taught us to do and that is to kindly rebuke people.October 14, 2005 at 5:29 am #5473
the thing i was most upset was the fact that you said non-catholics believe they’re going to heaven as soon as they accept Christ and i did say that in dialouge, you just decided to avoid it and not back it up.October 14, 2005 at 9:55 pm #5474
What he said was:
[quote:2rov4eab]They think they are going to heaven once they accept Jesus into their hearts whereas Catholics believe it is a lifelong journey.[/quote:2rov4eab]
This is a doctrine held by many non-catholic christians ctdmsl. What’s so offensive about it?
~VictorOctober 15, 2005 at 1:50 am #5475
And from the post he was replying to, it is clear that Jon was not speaking about all Protestants in general but specifically the fundamentalist groups as described by the previous poster.October 15, 2005 at 7:24 am #5476
what’s offensive about it is the fact that you truly think that non-catholic christians think they’re going to heaven as soon as they accept Christ. and as i’ve tried to explain, it’s not true. i don’t claim to know everything, no one does…but i was born into the united church, and i can kind of see what you’re talking about in that church…people show up to church on sundays, but other than that, ya, they really don’t show that theyvre religious, in other words, you can’t see Jesus in them by the way they live their daily lives. and my mom knew something was missing and left the church, and we’ve gone to a pentecostal church since then, and believe me, no one in that chuch believes that when you accept Jesus as a small child you’re a lock to get into heaven. you can tell by the way they live, and by the emotion that is displayed in church, that you’re never done serving the Lord. i’ve also attended a catholic church, where my girlfriend and her family belong, as i’ve posted before, but to me it seems like ppl just go through the motions…same routine every sunday, and i wonder how sincere everyone is. i’ve seen ppl on their knees crying in my home church, speaking in tongues, while at the particular catholic church i’ve been to, it’s like everyone’s just waiting out the hour, seriving their specified time in God’s presence, and as soon as it’s over, not even having fellowship with the congregation, but just getting out of there as quick as possible so they can get back to living how they do the other 6.5 days of the week. i just feel like evangelical christians live the exact opposite of the way that you described…i wish i had everything figured out, but i don’t…i just want the Lord in my life, and i’m sure he respects us all for having our faith, despite our differing opinions and interpretations…as long as we serve him, our whole lives, not just on sunday mornings…but A LIFE-LONG JOURNEY ” title=”Very Happy” />October 15, 2005 at 12:14 pm #5477
[quote:3b5j0bg3]what’s offensive about it is the fact that you truly think that non-catholic christians think they’re going to heaven as soon as they accept Christ[/quote:3b5j0bg3]
Ct, I can show you several fundamentalist message boards where the posters will tell you just that.
And once again, stop taking a remark that was made in reference to specific groups and expanding it to all Protestants.
Finally, I have to point out that your reasoning faith by how people act at church is fallacious. For some, faith is made most clear at church. However, for others, faith is lived by the words of St. James, “religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation and to keep one’s self unspotted from this world” James 1:27.October 15, 2005 at 4:40 pm #5478
so basically you guys are the best and always right and nothing else is any good and your way is the only way. probably every catholic in the world is going to heaven and everyone else straight to hell. happy?October 15, 2005 at 5:55 pm #5479
[quote:11j1759q]so basically you guys are the best and always right and nothing else is any good and your way is the only way. probably every catholic in the world is going to heaven and everyone else straight to hell. happy?[/quote:11j1759q]
Dude, no one ever said that. The plain and simple fact is that we don’t know who is going to heaven and who isn’t. There is no guarantee of salvation. God is the final judge.October 16, 2005 at 3:48 am #5480
ok, i’ve taken my deep breath…i guess i really shouldn’t assume what you guys mean, especially when i have limited knowledge of the catholic faith. that’s why i joined this site, and have asked constructive questions in the past…to learn about the faith. and although i may disagree with some points, losing my cool is not going to help me learn. i still don’t think that because i accepted Chirst as a child that i can do whatever i want and lead myself astray the rest of my life and still get into heaven…maybe you’re right…maybe most non-catholics think that, but myself as an individual do not…and i haven’t seen that attitude in anyone from my church either. and i’m glad that catholics think it’s a life-long journey too, because that’s the way it should be.October 16, 2005 at 2:03 pm #5481
[quote:1fyyh5yj]maybe you’re right…maybe most non-catholics think that[/quote:1fyyh5yj]I do not thnk most Protestants believe that. I do, however, think an unhealthy number of fundamentalist Protestants do.
Although taken out of context, there is a quote from Martin Luther that says, “sin boldly, yet more boldly still believe.” Some believe that no matter how much you sin, if you have faith you are saved. They are wrong and that is not what Luther was trying to get across.
[quote:1fyyh5yj]myself as an individual do not…and i haven’t seen that attitude in anyone from my church either[/quote:1fyyh5yj]Then great.October 18, 2005 at 4:45 am #5483
hey after some more thought, i’m thinking that you guys are basing that protestants think they’re going to heaven automatically when they accept Christ because of the verse, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but by Me.” I’ve talked about this verse before on here, and ya, protestants strongly believe in that verse. Well what we, or atleast I think of that verse is that ya, you only get to heaven if you accept Christ. but that’s not all. God is our heavenly father. if you went up to your earthly father and said “I love you dad,” and then slapped him in the face, do you think that your message got through?? do you think your dad feels like you love him?? no way. same thing with our heavenly father. if we accept him, and then live our lives totally unlike him, or “slap him in the face,” not a chance do we have salvation. so in a nutshell can someone please tell me how catholics think they’re going to heaven? like i know you said that we don’t know and that God is the only judge, but how do you put forth your best effort to earn salvation and spend eternity with him? do you not believe in the verse i stated and that someone who does not accept Christ ever can still go to heaven? do you think that the bible is right or partly right? what other things do you believe grants you salvation?
i’d appreciate your thoughts.October 18, 2005 at 4:56 am #5484
oh and another thing, for benedict specifically, i just read the entire forum and i must apologize right from the beginning, because you kept mentioning “fundamentalist” protestants, and not protestants as a whole. and i must have just glossed over the word before. now my question, i don’t know what fundamentalist protestant means…can you fill me in please?October 18, 2005 at 9:40 pm #5485
[quote:38j2almk]hey after some more thought, i’m thinking that you guys are basing that protestants think they’re going to heaven automatically when they accept Christ because of the verse, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but by Me.”I’ve talked about this verse before on here, and ya, protestants strongly believe in that verse.[/quote:38j2almk]
Protestants don’t base it off one verse. They use more then one verse to justify their position of [b:38j2almk]”[color=purple:38j2almk]once-saved-always-saved[/color:38j2almk]”[/b:38j2almk].
[quote:38j2almk]Well what we, or atleast I think of that verse is that ya, you only get to heaven if you accept Christ. but that’s not all. [/quote:38j2almk]
You sound catholic. But yeah technically that is [b:38j2almk]all[/b:38j2almk] you need to do. Don’t take my word for it, ask one of them.
[quote:38j2almk]God is our heavenly father. if you went up to your earthly father and said “I love you dad,” and then slapped him in the face, do you think that your message got through?? do you think your dad feels like you love him?? no way. same thing with our heavenly father. if we accept him, and then live our lives totally unlike him, or “slap him in the face,” not a chance do we have salvation. [/quote:38j2almk]
Amen! Yup definately catholic. ” title=”Very Happy” />
[quote:38j2almk]so in a nutshell can someone please tell me how catholics think they’re going to heaven? like i know you said that we don’t know and that God is the only judge, but how do you put forth your best effort to earn salvation and spend eternity with him? do you not believe in the verse i stated and that someone who does not accept Christ ever can still go to heaven? do you think that the bible is right or partly right? what other things do you believe grants you salvation? [/quote:38j2almk]
Actually you were doing just fine in explaining catholic understanding of salvation. Of course we believe in that verse. As a matter fact, everything we do is Christ-centered. It all points to Christ. Many times people object because catholics have different ways of getting to Christ in which people do no understand. Did you know that our belief in Mary is Christ-centered? That is just one example. As catholics we are to constantly go to the alter take in the Body of Christ, pray, and respond to God’s graces in HOPE that we will go to heaven.
As for your question about whether we believe in “part” of the bible or all of it. We deffinately believe in all of it. That is the simple answer. The only thing that grants us salvation is the Grace of God. The Graces of God come in different forms.
Hope that helps
Peace In Christ
~VictorOctober 18, 2005 at 10:57 pm #5486
[quote:3ibhth32]like i know you said that we don’t know and that God is the only judge, but how do you put forth your best effort to earn salvation and spend eternity with him?[/quote:3ibhth32]
I and Victor know what you mean by this, but I wanted to point out that you do not technically earn your salvation.
The catholic* model of salvation can be summed up as follows: we are saved by grace through a faith that works.
[quote:3ibhth32]do you not believe in the verse i stated and that someone who does not accept Christ ever can still go to heaven?[/quote:3ibhth32]
Ultimately, all who would go to heaven must accept Christ.
[quote:3ibhth32]now my question, i don’t know what fundamentalist protestant means…can you fill me in please?[/quote:3ibhth32]
Fundamentalist Protestants tend to take a hyperliteral or literalist view of the Bible while other Protestants and Catholics take a literal view of the Bible. One of the best ways to explain the difference between literalist and literal comes from John Martignoni, one of my favorite apologists:
If the Bible said it was raining cats and dogs, what would you take that to mean?
Someone who reads the Bible literally would figure out the meaning by examining the forms of expression and sayings utilized during the time of the author. He would conclude that it means there was plentiful rain.
Someone who reads the Bible literalistically would take that to mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky like rain.
Do you see how a literalistic reading of the Bible could lead to the belief we were discussing above? The Bible says believe and you are saved. They take that at face value and come up with instant and irrevocable salvation, which both you and I know is not what the Bible teaches. Salvation is a life-long process.
And just to clear up one more thing:
[quote:3ibhth32]You sound catholic.[/quote:3ibhth32]
When you see catholic with a small c, it means the orthodox Christian faith that Catholics and most Protestants agree upon. The Trinity would be an example of a small-c catholic belief.
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