American politics and Catholicism, church/state separation

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This topic contains 22 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Andres Ortiz 10 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #878

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    I ran across an interesting quote while reading a Catholic website promoting a particular politician:

    [quote:1ygq388b]As practical, rational people we recoginize i:1ygq388b]sic[/i:1ygq388b the spheres of government and God should be seperate i:1ygq388b]sic[/i:1ygq388b.[/quote:1ygq388b]

    What I struggle with is why such a statement was made. As practical and rational people we should recognize that we are to let God guide our consciences into making good decisions in government. Our faith is to guide all of our actions which include political ones. Why is God to be separate from Government? Doesn’t that allow for the devil to come in and take control?

    I think the person that wrote this may not have understood its broad implications. Perhaps he or she was trying to convey that there should be a separation of church and state in that the church is not running the government. Regardless, this statement has some serious problems.

    It is this kind of thinking that started the Reformation and the outbreak of the divisions in Christianity. God is not to be separate from our lives and our decisions, but rather if we claim we are a people of faith then God needs to be allowed to shape our lives.

    #3158

    Benedict
    Member

    I am not sure of the context of the quote, but I would not be too surprised if it was added to make the position seem more acceptable to non-Catholics . . . in other words, to appease or deflect intellectual bigotry.

    #3166

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Well, I suppose I could just give you the link, but I was trying to avoid a Bush vs. Kerry fest.

    http://www.catholicsforkerry.org/

    #3169

    given his radical pro abortion views.

    #3175

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Well, it’s indirectly pro-abortion. He supports women choosing whether they can get an abortion or not and in order to do that abortion must be legal in the first place so it is more indirect.

    #3178

    Saying “I am personaly against gassing jews but I respect a nazi’s right to chhose”

    or

    “I am personaly against child molestation but I support a pedaphiles right to choose”

    or

    ” I am personaly against slaver but support a slave owners right to choose”

    Any stable person would find these statements abhorent.
    When you think of it, there are politicians who are saying that, although they dont personaly agree with the idea of intruding a mother’s womb and cutting a living child with a heartbeat to pieces…yet the approve of someone’s [i:1cfi4djm]choice[/i:1cfi4djm] to do such an abhorent thing….
    well…there is nothing more disgusting than defending the indefensible

    #3185

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    I have thought the same thing myself many times about politicans and about comments I have heard in one of my classes, how they say they are against something for themselves, but support another’s right to choose.

    That mentallity is ok when talking having or not having anchovies on your pizza (and letting others choose whether or not to have anchovies on their own), but the life or death of a human being is a completely different matter.

    #3191

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    So…steering this back to the original topic, it makes no sense for a Catholic politician (or a politician of any faith for that matter) to vote for legislation against their personal beliefs.

    Now, I understand that senators and representatives have a responsibility to vote in the manner which the constituents want but I think there should be some level of veto power by the senator or representative when an issue comes into conflict with morality.

    Like Benedict said (kind of) in another topic – freedom of choice and freedom of conscience are all fine and dandy, but only if one has a properly formed conscience. <- mostly paraphrased <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    #3197

    Benedict
    Member

    But paraphrased well. <img src=” title=”Very Happy” />

    #3203

    when they run. Therefore, voters know what they are getting.

    #3204

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:9zcbc0nl]when they run. Therefore, voters know what they are getting.[/quote:9zcbc0nl]

    what?

    #3218

    Anonymous

    I wasn’t sure where to put this post on the election-this post addresses seperation of church and state. I watched Kerry at the convention last nite. I [i:1i5smu4m]tried[/i:1i5smu4m] to listen objectively—-I am sure that I did not succeed at that after hearing him address several key issues.

    He talks about not dividing our efforts, to work together as a country (re:war)


    let’s see his party has backed down when the USA tried to help in Afghanistan, he voted to pull support of our soldiers already in Iraq, in otherwords he agreed in the beginning that we had a mission to fight terrorism, but now?????? I do not get it. He talks about the mission, talks about his tenure as a soldier—but offers not one solid suggestion on how to accomplish that. That is what bothers me—-he keeps changing his mind—-I don’t think I want him at the helm in battle.

    The only time ( I did not hear the entire speech), he gave body language clues that he knew what he was talking about was when he addressed health care—-he was coming across with his expience as a trial lawyer. He and his running mate are two of the biggest trial lawyers in the nation.

    Again back to division—-he said that his campaign won’t focus on issues that divide the country -rather his campaign is about economics—-everybody cheered—-economics does that translate to pocketbook??? He said to have family values we need to support families. Well everyone would feel that way


    it is a good thing he does because under his administration we will need to support families who pull the plug, families with children who are so mixed up because they don’t know their own gender, let alone their parents gender or perhaps even species. Question—-how can we support families if a major order of business is tearing down families.

    He talked a little about faith—-I wish he would have discussed why he acts directly against the faith he ‘professes’ by being pro-death of unborn citizens.

    I am sure in my soapbox style I could go on and on—-that would not be fair, nor would it be written well.

    But back to family values, a term that he used at length, he also had the supporters pick up on the term ‘Help is on the way’ One of the major political and rhetorical flaw I heard in his speech was one of its summarizing points ( personally I could not believe he would use this particular point to wrap up his speech) He tells all that he will not have an administration that will stand in the way of science, in the way of stem cell research that could save many lives—- <img src=” title=”Sad” /> and terminate far more (last words mine)

    Prayerfully but also emotionally written.

    #3219

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster
    #3220

    The speech was horrid. Even Newspapers that support Kerry, like the New York Times and Washington Post panned his speech.
    It may have been the single worst nomination acceptance speech I have ever seen.

    As I saw it, Kerry had 4 things that he needed to accomplish in his speech, in descending order of importance;

    1) Demonstrate that he had iron clad, concrete plans to combat terrorism
    and strengthen the economy that is superior to Bush.

    2) Display a unifying, [i:n2pl8pdh][b:n2pl8pdh]positive[/b:n2pl8pdh][/i:n2pl8pdh] message for the country- a [/i]theme[i:n2pl8pdh]
    of his vision including;
    a) a flowery theme (a place called hope,
    a new tone, a thousand points of light)
    b) specific initiatives to accomplish it.

    3) Demonstrate that, despite his long history of cutting the military, that
    he has the will and the stomach to fight and win the war on terror rather
    than cave to the doves in his own party.

    4) Dispel the perception that he is a flip flopping political opportunist.

    In my opinion, he failed miserbly. He came off looking like a joke and actualy reinforced the very images he sought to dispel.
    His salute and declaration; “I’m John Kerry, reporting for duty” was amatuerish and embarrasing.

    Is Kerry done? I think so.
    If he still does win, it will be despite, and not because of, last night’s speech[/i:n2pl8pdh]

    #3221

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:2wmolc5r]As I saw it, Kerry had 4 things that he needed to accomplish in his speech, in descending order of importance;[/quote:2wmolc5r]
    Your checklist sounds more like “I’ve already sided with Bush, so if Kerry is going to convince me here are the things I need to hear” rather than “Let’s see what Kerry supports”.

    Just my impression. <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    #3225

    [quote:9l8dog8o][quote:9l8dog8o]As I saw it, Kerry had 4 things that he needed to accomplish in his speech, in descending order of importance;[/quote:9l8dog8o]
    Your checklist sounds more like “I’ve already sided with Bush, so if Kerry is going to convince me here are the things I need to hear” rather than “Let’s see what Kerry supports”.

    Just my impression. <img src=” title=”Wink” />[/quote:9l8dog8o]

    uh…let’s be serious here Jon…
    there was [b:9l8dog8o]nothing[/b:9l8dog8o] Kerry could say that would convince [i:9l8dog8o]me[/i:9l8dog8o].
    The checklist, however, is what I felt he needed to do to convince the sheep…er…I mean….undecided voters
    <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    #3227

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:27jwc67e]uh…let’s be serious here Jon…
    there was [b:27jwc67e]nothing[/b:27jwc67e] Kerry could say that would convince [i:27jwc67e]me[/i:27jwc67e].[/quote:27jwc67e]

    Oh trust me, I [i:27jwc67e]know[/i:27jwc67e] that. <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    #3415

    Well for starters the phrase “separation of Church and state” comes from a private letter from President-elect Jefferson to a group of Baptist ministers who endorsed him just prior to his election. This phrase #1 does not appear in the U.S. Constitution and secondly was thanking religous leaders for persuading their congregation to vote for Jefferson. This phrase is repeatedly used to attack Conservative Christian thinking, making Christian beliefs illegitimate in our country and placing people of good conscience into confusion.
    No one would suggest that we question the conscience or motives of an atheist. No one questions the integrity of the radical enviromentalists who hate men in the name of nature. Yet, one stands up says abortion is wrong and oh by the way goes to Church on Sunday, somehow their belief becomes less. The seperation crowd however has no trouble when religous leaders are espousing their points of view.Many predominantly African-American churches have candidates speak on the pulpit, Kerry, Gore and Clinton all have done it in running for President. Many Jewish congregations speak on voting. IF we believe God created the universe and that we were given stewardship( Genesis) and that we have an obligation to evangelize( in this case in thhe way we as a nation live, not smacking people over the heads with Bibles) than we are obligated to choose candidates who best espouse our views as formed in religous beliefs.

    #3437

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:jh0jsnmz]No one would suggest that we question the conscience or motives of an atheist. No one questions the integrity of the radical enviromentalists who hate men in the name of nature. Yet, one stands up says abortion is wrong and oh by the way goes to Church on Sunday, somehow their belief becomes less.[/quote:jh0jsnmz]
    I started a topic about this a little while ago, because I too was getting fed up with this issue: http://www.aboutcatholics.com/community … .php?t=263

    #3440

    I share your frustration. Kerry gets accolades for stating he is a devout Catholic and yet tells the Church to hush and stands opposed to many Church teachings.

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