No what I want is for you to believe what the Bible really says, not the snippets that you choose out of context as the sole teaching of Christ. While Faith is an important aspect in our salvation, it is not the sole aspect as Protestantism falsely teaches. Read here from KJV James 2: 17-26, (The epistle that Luther wanted to expunge from the Bible when he tossed out the Books of the OT that spoke of prayers and sacrifices for the dead, which Jesus did not condemn.)
[quote:7titxipv]17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Gen 15:6 Rom 4:3 Gal 3:6 Isa 41:8
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/quote:7titxipv]
Point of fact: the only time that “faith” and “alone” appear together in all of Sacred Scripture it is in James 2:24 where we are told, “man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
While faith is very important, it is not all that Jesus said we need for salvation.
Mt 19:16-17, Jesus says that to have life we have to keep the commandments.
Jn 14:21, Jesus says that he who keeps my commandments loves me.
Rom 2:2-8, Paul says that we gain eternal life by persevering in good works.
Gal 5:4-6, Paul tells us that nothing counts except faith working through love.
Eph 2:8-10 Paul says that we are created in Christ for good works.
Phil 2:12-13 Paul says that he is working out his salvation through fear and trembling (not a one time done and over with event).
And Jas 2:14-24 that I have already quoted above that specifically says that man is not justified by faith alone.
So too the Catholic Church in agreement with the Scriptures does not hold that the works are effective when done either in a sinful state or if they are done for our own Glory, (as described with Scripture references and ignored by Ronald on prior postings)
One of the problems I have pointed out before about Protestant “Proof Texts” is they are given as absolute proof that one misguided and false Protestant doctrine is supported by the Bible, like “Sola Fide” Each book, each chapter, each sentence in the Scriptures is not complete. But the Bible as a whole is. This is what you must look at. If the Bible says 50 times, we are saved by Faith, and mentions but once or twice that we are that Faith without works is dead, that does not mean that works are “outvoted” by more passages that do not mention them, it simply means that the entire doctrine was not fleshed out by the 50 passages. So too when the Bible mentions Faith in one passage, and the commandment to go out and baptize… This is one of the major problems with Protestant arguments and most especially with the Sola crowd. They take the Bible as their own personal playground, and ignore the big picture while searching out what they think proves their own personal opinions. If the Bible is silent on something they either imply that it forbids it, or simply skip over it. Grounded not on what St. Paul and the other Apostles taught, both in Scripture and what their desciples wrote that they where taught, but what they sixteen to twenty-one centuries think they where inspired to write, devoid of anything but their own personal pejudices.
Now based on the Ronoldian Scripture interpretation method, lets look at more of the Holy Writ. As Ronaldo has told us in reply to the statements of Christ to the Apostles, “Whosoevers sins you forgive…”
[quote:7titxipv]YEs you are missing something. The facts are that because He spent 3 years teaching them and they know the gospel, they can tell someone if their sins are fogiven or not based upon that individual’s beliefs – [u:7titxipv][b:7titxipv]it doesn’t say “I give you the power to forgive sins” does it!!! [/b:7titxipv][/u:7titxipv][/quote:7titxipv] (Emphasis mine)
Applying Ronaldism to other texts lets see what they say….
[quote:7titxipv]16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. II Tim 3: 16-17[/quote:7titxipv]
[b:7titxipv]All Scripture is given by inspriation of God.[/b:7titxipv] Well the Catholic Church holds that to be one of the requirements to remain a Catholic in good standing.
[b:7titxipv]and is profitable for ….. [/b:7titxipv] Does it say, is the only yardstick that you can use in defining doctrine. Does it say, if it ain’t in the Bible then God condemns it. Does it say, anything about being the only means of defining doctrine? Nope, it just says it is prophitable, (KJV) or useful in other Protestant versions. Not that it is the complete manual of all things.
[quote:7titxipv]24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.[/quote:7titxipv]
Ronaldism still claims that all that you need is contained in the Bible, anything else is either unreliable or a lie fabricated by the Catholic Church.
So either Jesus was doing a standup comedy routine that was not to be recorded in the Gospels, or the Epistles. Or what he said and did that is not recorded is unimportant, and should be forgotten, as when Jesus takes his disciples after his sermons to crowds and the Scriptures tell us that he instructed them further, in which case based on the “if it ain’t in Scripture it ain’t important or true” philosophy then Jesus was instructing them for no good reason. As Catholics we know that since many would misrepresent and misinterpret what Jesus said, He instructed those who would become leaders in the Church He founded, so they could clarify those things that where to later be recorded in Scripture, and to teach what both He and the Holy Ghost guided and directed them to teach.
Since Ronoldian theology denies what Jesus said and did as illustrated by his above statement, lets give the above Scripture in it’s expanded context.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.[/quote:7titxipv]
What happened? Here we have an instance where Jesus having risen from the dead appears to the Apostles, and what does He do? He does two very Jewish things, things done when a blessing is bestowed, when priests are ordained for service in the Temple, and when authority is given. He lays hands on the Apostles, and breaths on them, signifying a transmission of some kind of authority. What does he say next. Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them.
Now the Catholic Church claims that like the Apostles a priest is given the authority to forgive in the name of Christ Jesus, but He does not simply say, you can forgive in my name, what He says is Whosoever sins [u:7titxipv][b:7titxipv]ye remit[/b:7titxipv][/u:7titxipv]. Despite Ronalds protest that it does not say, I give you the authority, what did Christ “Say and Do” As God having the power to remit sins, He also had the power to delegate that authority to anyone He chose to. Jesus did not say, I’m the only one who will forgive sins. Once again, looking at the Bible as a whole, we see the plan of salvation unfold.
In the Old Testament we see God is the Creator of everything. Then we see God reveals Himself to Abram, who’s name (like most men who are chosen for important offices) has his name changed to Abraham when God reveals that He alone is the God that is to be worshiped. Then it is revealed to Moses that the Priesthood of Aaron will be established, and the Tribe of Levi will play a role (the Levi and the Cohenem play important roles in the jewish priesthood. Even to this day the Decendants of the Levi give the Levitical Blessing at the end of the services in both Ashkenazi and Sephardic services. I can remember the first time I was asked to give the Levitical Blessing) We see the prophecies of Jesus and of His mother in the OT. We see that Jesus after submitting Himself to the Law, and to Mary and Joseph slowly reveals His true identity to the world, first to His closest desciples, He picks a fallible man, Simon, and like Abram of old changes his name to Kephas, (Petros in Greek, and Peter in English) from Simon to Rock. He tells His desciples to go out to the entire world, and that those who hear them, hear Him. Quite a promise if they have no authoity to speak for Him both before and after the first words of the New Testament are put to papirus and Lamb skin. We don’t see a clear and orderly list in the New Testament, but we see various teachings contained here and there throughout it, in a manner much more random than in the Book of Leviticus, or Duteronomy. Making it all the more important to read and absorb the Scriptures not in “Proof Text” nibbles, but in the context of the whole. Not as the complete manual as the only thing God revealed to us, but as a general manual of some of the most important ideas God wishes to share with us. Now I do know this does not jive with Ronaldsim, but it does with both what the Scriptures tell us, (II Tim 3: 16-17 again) and what we know about the practice and teachings of the Early Church at the time of and just after the death of the Apostles. So which I ask you is correct. What has always been held as true, or what Ronald is telling us that you must believe because he reads it that way, and tells us to ignore what has always been taught as being “what we say is so” and that he knows better?