[quote:2173n9aj]1 if sin still clinges then they go to Hell[/quote:2173n9aj]
It is not the guilt of sin that still clings but the attachment to sin through bad habit and concupiscence. The attachment is a result of our fallen state but is not, in and of itself, a sin (such that it would condemn us).
[quote:2173n9aj]1 – today that may seem silly but five dollars in the middle ages would be huge[/quote:2173n9aj]
It is relative wealth, Ron. Our five dollars is the 1920’s nickel is the Middle Age’s farthing.
[quote:2173n9aj]2 – We aren’t given that option after death – John 3:36 tells us if one believes they are saved, if not they aren’t![/quote:2173n9aj]
What option? No one who is not already saved and on the path to heaven will ever see purgatory. It is not a second chance at salvation, it is the threshhold.
[quote:2173n9aj]Biblical outlook – in neither example is the Bible extablishing doctrinal establishing any more then David’s adultery and murdering establish adultery and murder as acceptable. The facts of them doing it just are historical facts that they accured or are accuring even today by non-believers. [/quote:2173n9aj]
The fact that the early Church from the time of the Apostolic Fathers to the present day have held that prayers for the dead are both efficacious and the teaching of the Apostles establishes doctrine. St. Paul even offers a prayer for Onesiphorus, that the Lord grant him mercy.
[quote:2173n9aj]1 – 3/4 of those who claim to be Christians perhaps, but not actual Christians – big difference[/quote:2173n9aj]
Actual Christians being only those who believe like you do, Ron?
[quote:2173n9aj]2 – again you are making human “feelings” and speculation, instead of going by the only area that Matters – by “What does God’s word say?”[/quote:2173n9aj]
We covered that earlier in the thread. God’s word says nothing imperfect will enter heaven. Everyone agrees that we are not wholly perfect when we die, so we must be made so.
[quote:2173n9aj]1 – regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.[/quote:2173n9aj]
Absolutely! Are you finally getting that purgatory is an application of Christ’s work to us?
[quote:2173n9aj]but you aren’t a child of His until you believe in Him![/quote:2173n9aj]
This is wholly irrelevant to the discussion.
[quote:2173n9aj]Temporal punishments do not remove our sins either[/quote:2173n9aj]
Who said they did? Ron, you are still confused on the issue. Purgatory does not remit guilt for sins. If you suffer the guilt of sin, you never reach purgatory because you are condemned.
[quote:2173n9aj]Those consequences that David lost his son is a result of his sin, not His being purged of sin[/quote:2173n9aj]
You are not seeing the forest for the trees. Those consequences were the temporal effects of sin. All sin carries such consequences because justice demands it. Our consequence for offending the eternal and infinite God is eternal punishment. Our consequences for offending finite man and creation is temporal punishment. God forgave David but still had him suffer the temporal punishment.
[quote:2173n9aj]Weather, not to be contrarian, but doesn’t your example of the “telephone” game discredit oral tradition and bolster Ron’s argument that the written word is the trustworthy source?
I mean, it could be said that the tradition has been through a 2,000 year game of telephone, whereas the Scripture was written down soon after the events and not changed. [/quote:2173n9aj]
The same Church that preserved oral tradition was responsible for preserving the Bible. If they screwed up the oral part of tradition, they had every chance to screw up the written part. This is even stronger if someone believes the Church deliberately made up the oral tradition.
[quote:2173n9aj]as a catholic, you don’t read it that way because you are told that you can’t understand it.[/quote:2173n9aj]
Only by certain evangelicals. The Church has always encouraged reading and understanding Sacred Scripture. The real key is noticing that simply reading it is not understanding it.