Reply To: What is Tradition?

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Benedict writes:
That is a circular argument. You can only use Scripture to discern tradition by presuming, a priori, that Scripture is the rule[/quote:2svb3al3]

Circular argument? Naw, It is the Word of God and it is sufficient. To say that the Bible doesn’t tell us everything is to suggest that we’d need something that’s missing. So what is it that you think we’re missing and then do we just ignore the verses that says we can know?

[quote:2svb3al3]It is both his interpretation and the truth. A simple look at the context of the statement (“you have known since your infancy”) indicates that Paul was speaking of the Old Testament. For you to say that he necessarily referred also to the New Testament, which was not yet written nor yet compiled, is to make St. Paul’s instruction to Timothy incorrect, incomplete, or both[/quote:2svb3al3]

Paul knew whagt was being taujght orallyand how to discern what was being said orally for He was there. But since we aren’t living at that time, the only way for us to know this 2000 years later is through the written Word as He tells us in 1 Corinthians 4:6 – [color=darkred:2svb3al3]that you may learn in us[u:2svb3al3][b:2svb3al3] not to think beyond what is written[/b:2svb3al3][/u:2svb3al3], that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other[/color:2svb3al3]
It does and they are. When one looks at Scripture without the aid of tradition, interpretation suffers. [/quote:2svb3al3]

Oh is that so? I’m afraid that you are badly mistaken. Why? Because even Jesus would say, [color=darkred:2svb3al3]” Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.”[/color:2svb3al3] and yet we’re warned about the many traditions that are false. And how does one know what to believe? Hebrews 4:12 does not include traditions, but on ly Scriptures – [color=darkred:2svb3al3]For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and[u:2svb3al3][b:2svb3al3] is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart[/b:2svb3al3][/u:2svb3al3].[/color:2svb3al3]

[quote:2svb3al3]It does and they are. When one looks at Scripture without the aid of tradition, interpretation suffers[/quote:2svb3al3]

Sorry Benedict, but you have those reversed with your problem being that you aren’t able to discern this fact – [color=darkred:2svb3al3]But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned[/color:2svb3al3] (1 Corinthians 2:14)

[quote:2svb3al3]On the contrary, Cardinal Newman proved it in St. Paul’s exhortation to follow both the written and the spoken. The Bible itself says to follow the oral tradition, therefore the Bible itself says it is not formally sufficient. [/quote:2svb3al3]

The areas in which they do NOT match are many in Catholic teachings as I’ve shown in my website – the oral traditions aren’t the same as what your church claims and tries to tell us – which is another reason that you have the catechism, the Mormons have the Book of Mormonism, the JW’s have their own book as well – again this is why there was the reformation needed – because Martin Luther could see this fact as well.

Christ established a church, a church which preserved both the Scriptures and the oral traditions passed down through the Apostles. Simple as that. [/quote:2svb3al3]
By quoting Matthew 16 in no way proves you are the “church” its only one of your claims. One only has to know Scriptures to see that much!

[quote:2svb3al3]And we return to the fact that they do match.

Interestingly, did you know that the canon of the Bible was determined based on whether the book matched the oral teaching? You somehow think that by going the other way there is a contradiction. [/quote:2svb3al3]

So you say this but as you can see by the Facts of knowing Scriptures
that THE oral teachings that was said is much different then what you guys claim it said, things like today’s mass, priests, sacramental means of “meriting graces,” purgatory. In most of these your interpretation of
the word is explained, not what the Bible says especially in the Gospel itself!!!

[quote:2svb3al3]Therein you are incorrect. Note, for example, that St. Paul, in Scripture, exhorts Christians to follow the written word and the oral word. He demarks them as separate. If the two were the same, as you assert, there would be no need.

Further, St. John specifically states in his epistles that there is much he would talk about but he does not write it. Instead, he waits to speak in person. Such lessons were carried in the oral tradition but are specifically called out as absent from the Biblical text. [/quote:2svb3al3]
If they were different, then we’d have a bunch of contraditions, but they’re the same. Its the many traditions that you guys have added that differs and weren’t said and those are the ones that are absent from Scriptures. Yet John says we can know because what the Scriptures have
is sufficient – Do we ignore this statement?

[quote:2svb3al3]From there you just repeat your errors concerning Biblical interpretation (mistaking your interpretation for the sole interpretation) and the circular argument of Scripture as the final authority. Scripture was discerned by its matching with Tradition, not the other way around.[/quote:2svb3al3]

Anyone that truly is a Believer, knows that the Scriptures are the truth -John 17:17 and this is without having your “traditions” to compair them as a guide. You, my friend, have this reversed and often times your church tries to isolate a verse or section of verses to back up strange traditions such as praying to the dead, somehow gets backed up by “those in Heaven are alive in Christ” – a whole distortion in itself, or John 6 as “proof” of the unbiblical tradition of transubstantiation in which we are to disregard verses like Matthew 10-11 ” [color=darkred:2svb3al3] 10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” [/color:2svb3al3] and further stated in verses 15:16-18[color=darkred:2svb3al3] “16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.”[/color:2svb3al3] as well as Acts 7:48 [color=darkred:2svb3al3]””However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands,[/color:2svb3al3]”

these traditions never were taught BIBLICALLY!