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[quote:3nhvnq7r][quote:3nhvnq7r]The only thing I disagree with is: “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” Ephesians 2:8-9[/quote:3nhvnq7r]
The sacraments are the works of God, not of man. God freely gives His grace to us through them (though not exclusively through them). They are, therefore, perfectly in line with Ephesians 2.

[u:3nhvnq7r]Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also[/u:3nhvnq7r]: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21

But Peter said to them: Do penance: and [u:3nhvnq7r]be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins[/u:3nhvnq7r]. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39

And the Old Testament foreshadow of Acts 2, in which we see that it is God who works in baptism:

[u:3nhvnq7r]And [b:3nhvnq7r]I[/b:3nhvnq7r] will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols[/u:3nhvnq7r]. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them. And you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel 36:25-28

And the writings of the early Church Fathers. St. Justin Martyr was one of the first and greatest Christian apologists in the immediate post-Apostolic age. St. Irenaeus was a second-generation disciple of St. John the Apostle, by way of St. Polycarp of Smyrna:

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly … [u:3nhvnq7r]are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated[/u:3nhvnq7r]. For, in the name of God, the Father … and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (St. Justin Martyr, First Apology 61).

“And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan” [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. [u:3nhvnq7r]For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes[/u:3nhvnq7r], even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment 34).[/quote:3nhvnq7r]

The O.T. verse in Ezekiel is symbolic. The one in Kings is not talking about the forgiveness of sins, but about the cure of Naaman’s disease. As for the N.T. verses… I don’t have a lot of time so I’m going to copy and paste from biblefood about ‘baptizo.’

[quote:3nhvnq7r]Underneath the English word “baptize” in the New Testament, are forms of the Greek word “baptizo”, from the root word “bapto”, meaning “to dip”. The English word “baptism” is not a translation of the Greek word “baptizo”, but is a “transliteration”, or bringing the “spelling” of the Greek word “baptizo” into the English language with a comparable English spelling. This means that the English word “baptize” has no meaning of its own, but we must look at the uses of the Greek word “baptizo” in the Bible and in Greek literature to find it’s true meaning. What we want to know is, what did “baptizo” mean to the New Testament writers who used it in the Greek text.

In my studies, I find that “baptizo” was used in two ways in the classical Greek literature:

1. To “place in”, as a physical immersion. In the Ninth Book of the Odyssey, “baptizo” is used concerning a blacksmith plunging a piece of hot iron in water to temper it. Also, the classical Greek writer Euripedes used “baptizo” concerning a ship which sinks beneath the water.

2. To “identify with”, a ceremonial use of “baptizo”. In the classical Greek writing “Anabasis” written by Xenophon, Greek soldiers were said to have ceremonially “baptized”, or “dipped” spears and arrow tips in blood, to “identity” them as weapons of war.

“Baptizo” became the common Greek word for “dipping”, “submerging”, and “washing” by the time of Christ and the writing of books of the New Testament. The Greek word “baptizo”, is even translated “washings” in Heb 9:10, where it speaks of the ceremonial “washings” of the Old Testament temple sacrifice system.

When we study all the passages in the New Testament where we find the word “baptism”, we find that there are actually SEVEN “baptisms” in the New Testament; four “real baptisms”, and three “ritual, or symbolic baptisms”. The first four “real baptisms” are “dry baptisms”, where the recipient was not immersed in water at all.

The four “real” baptisms have the second meaning above, an actual “identification” of one thing with another. God himself is the sole agent for these four baptisms:

1. 1 Cor.10:2, the “Baptism of Moses”: The word baptism in 1 Cor.10:2, refers specifically to the children of Israel as they were leaving Egypt. All the people who left Egypt with Moses and went with him through the Red Sea are said to have been baptized (identified) with Moses in the cloud (Christ was in the cloud), and in the sea. This “identified” them with Moses and the plan of God to free the children of Israel, and re-establish them in their homeland. Notice this is a baptism where no one got wet except the Egyptians! This was a unique, one-time “baptism”.

2. Mat.20:22: “Baptism of the cross”, in which Christ was “identified” with our sins, called here the “Baptism of the Cup”. He who knew no sin was made to be a sin offering for us. This was also a unique, one-time baptism.

3. Matt. 3:11-12, Luke 3:16: The Baptism of Fire, which will occur at the end of the Seven Year Tribulation, is the removal of all unbelievers from the earth at the end of the Tribulation, to begin the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Christ on earth with believers only. (“Wheat” in this passage refers to the people of God who physically live through the Tribulation, and “chaff”, in the scripture, always refers to unbelievers). In this “baptism”, every human being that is left on the earth to live in the Millennium is “identified” with the Millennial reign of Christ, where the world is started over with believers only, just like the Great Flood of Noah’s time swept away all the unbelievers..

4. 1 Cor.12:13, Gal 3:27; Baptism by the Holy Spirit. These passages teach a permanent, instantaneous, one-time “baptism” of every child of God, by the Holy Spirit. This is the point in time that the child of God is “born again”, 1 Pet 1:23, transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, Col. 1:13, sealed into union with Christ by the Holy Spirit, Eph. 1:13&14, and therefore permanently “identified” as “in Christ”.

The three “ritual baptisms”:

1. The baptism of John, Matt. 3:1-10, John 1:25-33: This was a Jewish, not a Christian baptism. Water in this baptism represents coming the kingdom of God that John was preaching. The new believer would go under the water “because of repentance”, to indicate his identification with the eternal kingdom of God. This was a unique and temporary baptism for people who lived just prior to and during the early ministry of Jesus. These believers would later be baptized by the Holy Spirit, after Pentecost and the beginning of the Church Age, in Acts Chapter two, and later they received ritual believers baptism to represent what had already happened to them, identifying them with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Interestingly, believers who lived during the Apostolic Era, during the life of the 12 Apostles, may have received THREE different “baptisms”, the baptism of John, baptism of the Holy Spirit, and ritual water baptism!

2. Mat.3:13-17, The baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ by John the Baptist (actually John the “Baptizer”). The water in this case represented the will of the Father. Jesus willingly went under the water to represent His “identification” with the Father’s will – He would go to the cross. Another unique, one-time baptism.

3. Acts 2:38, 8:36 & 38, and 16:33. Ritual water baptism for the Church Age believer. This is a beautiful picture of something that has already happened. When a person has become a child of God by being instantaneously “born again”, 1 Pet 1:23, transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, Col. 1:13, and sealed into union with Christ, Eph. 1:13&14, ritual water baptism pictures all of this as well as being “dead with Christ”, and “raised in newness of life”, Rom. 6:3 & 4.

Water Baptism is not necessary for “salvation”:

Becoming a child of God is a sovereign act of God Himself. He alone is responsible for the New Birth, for transferring us from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, and for sealing us into permanent union with Christ.

In Luke 23:39-43, Jesus told the repentant thief who was crucified on the Cross with him that “today thou shalt be with me in paradise”. There was no time for him to be water baptized.

Some religious denominations teach “baptismal regeneration”, that the “ACT” of water baptism itself regenerates or makes a person a born again child of God.

Those who believe in “baptismal regeneration”, and that water baptism is necessary for salvation, use Acts 2:38, 22:16, and 1 Pet 3:21 to prove their belief, but, I find that the Greek text in these verses, and the teaching of the rest of the Word of God on baptism, shows that this is incorrect:

In Acts 2:38, Peter said unto them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. Some denominations see the word “for” in this verse as meaning that water baptism itself washes away sins. But, the English word “for” in this verse is the Greek word “eis”, meaning “because of” the remission of sins. Their sins were forgiven already, and their public baptism was a RITUAL to publicly acknowledge what God had already done.

This was also during the “Apostolic Era”, during the ministry of the twelve Apostles, when people who were already born again believers received the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate experience, as in Acts. 8:15-17. In the New Testament Epistles to the CHURCHES, from Roman letter to the first 3 chapters of the Book of Revelation, “baptism by the Holy Spirit” is no longer a separate experience, but a person is born again, transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, and sealed into union with Christ, at one point in time, by a sovereign act of God.

In 1 Pet 3:21, for example, the Greek word translated “baptism” is the Greek word “baptisma”, which is a NOUN, meaning the “THINGS” SIGNIFIED BY BAPTISM, it is NOT A VERB as the English reader would naturally assume! Peter is saying that “baptism doth save us (is presently saving us) “, meaning that the “things”, or “Bible teachings”, or “doctrines” CONCERNING baptism are now saving us. What are those things, or teachings that baptism signifies? We are buried with Christ, sins washed away, raised in newness of life, the great doctrines of soteriology, or salvation, these are the “things” now saving us, not the verb, the ACT of baptism!

I believe the bottom line is that the New Testament teaches that the ACT of water baptism outwardly PORTRAYS what God HAS ALREADY DONE for us. The REALITY is what God does. The RITUAL is what we do to publicly acknowledge what God has done.

As far as “sprinkling” and “immersion” is concerned, the Greek language has a word for “sprinkle”, and that is “rantizo”. “Rantizo” is used in Heb. 9:13, 19, and 21, in Heb.10:22, Heb. 12:24, and in 1 Pet. 1:2. “Rantizo”, or “sprinkling” is never used concerning a ritual for New Testament believers. Substituting “sprinkling” for “baptism” by immersion has no Biblical basis.

Some denominations also place great stress on Acts 2:38, adamantly believing that you cannot be “saved” until you are water baptized specifically “in the name of Jesus Christ”. But, if we read further on, we read in Acts 10:48 that new believers were told to be baptized “in the name of the Lord”. Most Baptists, that I know of, baptize in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. The New Testament teaches that all our prayer should be addressed to the Father, in the name of Jesus, in the power of the Holy Spirit, so being baptized in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” makes good sense to me.

1 John 5:1 states in the Greek, “Anyone who is presently believing that Jesus is the Christ, has already been permanently born out from the source of God”. So, personally, I believe that in the Church Age, we should teach new believers the full meaning of ritual water baptism before they are baptized. When properly understood, believers baptism is a beautiful ritual that signifies that our old life has already been buried with Christ, and we are raised with Him in newness of life. By the power of God, we have already become a new person “in Christ”, 2 Cor. 5:17.[/quote:3nhvnq7r]

[quote:3nhvnq7r]Hey Herkman,

As a Protestant what has convinced you that Catholics are not Christians?

I’d prefer not to hear the arguments like: (1) they worship Mary and commit idolatry; (2)prayers for the dead is sinful (3) they add to faith the OT works of the law, and so forth…

What kind of home are you raised in? What’s your denomination? Who told you Catholics are not Christians?

Is the creed shared earlier (I can’t remember who) not evidence enough that they are of the same faith as any confessing Protestant?[/quote:3nhvnq7r]

I am not protestant.
I am being raised in a Christian/Evangelical home.
I am of an Evangelical denomination.

And, no, it is not.

Even though I am not a protestant, the simple fact that you do not agree with my signature is what makes me believe that Catholics are not Christians.