Reply To: Website Says Feeneyism Is Heresy Instead Of Cushingism

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LARoberts:
What the Sisters in Worster had to do
While as I have mentioned previously, it is permitted for one to hold the strict interpretation of EENS, the Sisters like any honest Catholic also had to admit that the strict position is not dogmatic, and that a Catholic may hold BOD and BOB, as well as Invincible Ignorance. The sisters had to agree to this to be able to be regularized and have their houses canonically erected.
Lionel:
Correct the Sisters of St.Benedict Center, Worcester affirm the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and also affirm the baptism of desire (Council of Trent) and the possibility of non Catholics being saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16).
Since as I have mentioned above we do not know any defacto case of a person saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire so it does not contradict the ‘strict interpretation’ of the dogma. It also does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.
They have received canonical status.

Proclaiming Someone to be heretical
You continue to stretch the limits of the truth. While it is true that we have the obligation to point out heretical teachings, you have gone beyond that. First you cite things as being heretical that the Church says are not. Secondly and most importantly neither you nor I have the authority to act as judge and to proclaim someone a heretic whom the Church has not, most of all to act as judge of the Pope, and to make a public proclomation of him being a heretic.
While it is true that we have the obligation to point out heretical teachings,..
Lionel:
In the Nicene Creed we pray :”I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin”. We believe that the baptism of water given to adults with Catholic Faith is necessary for salvation.
Vatican Council II(Ad Gentes 7) all says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.
Dominus Iesus 20 says salvation is open to all however to receive it one needs to enter the Church.
The dogma quoted above says all need to convert into the church to avoid the fires of Hell.
So to deny this teaching is a first class heresy.
If someone assumes that the baptism of desire is known to us and so it is an exception to the dogma then this is a denial of the Nicene Creed. It is saying that all people on earth do not need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation and that there are some defacto exceptions. There are defacto exceptions to the Creedal teaching!
This is heresy and originated in Boston when the Cardinal-Archbishop said that there was salvation outside the church. The media reported that the church has changed its centuries old teaching and there was no correction from the Archbishop of Boston who suggested that those saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma. Since then this heresy has spread in the Catholic Church.

Faulty Sources
You deny any authority to accepted and approved sources which deny your private opinon as having dogmatic authority. You use sources such as the Diamond Brothers, a couple of 30 year old Sede Vacantists who hold that anyone who accepts any Pope after the reign of Pope Pius XII as being an Anti-Pope, and all who accept them as being non-Catholic.
Lionel:
The sources I use I quote .I cite references. The Dimond Brothers also make the error of assuming that the baptism of desire is visible and known to us and so would be an exception to the dogma. So they reject the baptism of desire of the Council of Trent though they affirm the dogmatic teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
I have written quite a few reports on my blog critical of their position.
However they are correct in saying that it is a sin to reject the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
They refer to general heresy in the Catholic Church because of the rejection of the dogma however they do not mention that they are in error by denying the baptism of desire , which really is not an exception to the dogma which they defend.

They have also stated that anyone who denies the Papacies of Popes since Pope John XXIII, but denies Fr. Feeney’s dogmatic assertions is a non-Catholic. Sadly that makes you a non-Catholic in their eyes, which means that you are excluded from the Church, and by your standpoint, Salvation. I’ll not drag on the other poorly researched sources on your Blog.
Lionel:
I accept all the papacies since Pope John XIII and before .
I do not deny Fr.Leonard Feeney’s support of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It is according to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.Fr.Leonard Feeney is in agreement with the statements of the popes and the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

See the three defined dogmas above. Where does it mention the baptism of desire ?

Intellectual dishonesty
I’ve never read anywhere that Cardinal Cushing, Pope Pius XII or any other reliable authority in the Catholic Church has claimed what you assert; that an individual who is saved by BOD, BOB, or II is known to anyone except God.
Lionel:
That statement is based on simple reason.
I asked you, and through you,I asked the brother with Fr.Leonard Feeney’s community in LA the same question: Do you or your relatives or friends or parish priest or anyone else know any body on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ?
No one says ‘yes we do’.
Then I ask you both:How can Cardinal Cushing or any one else claim that those saved in these ‘exceptional cases’ are a defacto, known, objective exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
No one answers.

All in all the Church allows for both the narrow interpretation of EENS and it allows for the belief in BOD, BOB and II, as long as anyone holding any or all of the views does so within the context of the teaching of the Church, that being that Salvation comes to all who God applies it to by the Cross of Christ, and through the Church.
Lionel:
Correct salvation comes ‘to all who God applies it to by the Cross of Christ, and through the Church’ and all people on earth, all mankind, needs to enter the Catholic Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell (for salvation).
So the above statement allows for ‘the belief in BOD, BOB and II’ and also for ‘ the narrow interpretation’

Any Non-Catholic who is saved is saved not through their false religions, (which may contain some of the truth) but by the Graces God dispenses through His Church.
Lionel:
True any non Catholic who is saved is saved not through his false religion but by the Grace God dispenses through His Church and the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water,in general, all need to convert into the Church. This is the teaching of the Magisterium.